Tipping point on booty ethics?

Old rule: find it on a climb, it's yours.

New custom: lose it on a climb/find it on a climb, post up and wait to see if anyone responds.

Have the internet and the new custom changed the ethical standard? If you clean it, does decency require you to post up, or at least look to see if anyone else did, so you can can give it back?

Damned old internets! Used to be simple. Now the redefined ethical standard bothers even Republicans.

I'd post up. But if you really want to keep it, you can try an obscure site than focuses on a different area than your locale. Maybe put a little extra in the collection plate on Sunday...

Most states have a law about finding valuable property. And since the laws are mostly really old, the definition of "valuable" can be pretty humorous. (Three dollars in Massachusetts, for example.)

malegislature.gov/Laws/Gene…

Most states give you the option of turning the property in to the police, or hanging on to it and posting an advertisement in something called a newspaper. You then get legal title after some period of time has elapsed.

Note that most states distinguish between "lost" and "abandoned." Dropped gear might be lost, wedged gear is abandoned.

The dilemna that keeps me awake at night is if I come upon a "perma draw' but can unscrew it, obviously it isn't "perma". Does that make it booty? And if so am I obligated to post it on line and then, how long do I wait for the reply before I keep it as mine?

Just leave it as you find it. You don't remove bolt hangers, rap slings,etc. just because you can, right? If it's fixed for public use, respect the gift and be thankful.

finding booty, being a pirate, is one of the last-remaining joys of the universe. Most of my rack is bootied gear, thank the climbing pirate gods—hooba jooba heebie—you're not getting it back!

Some of these comments are pretty silly. Crags would be littered with gear if no one bootied left or stuck gear. perma draws - agree or not with them - are pretty obvious; left intentionally for folks to use on sport climbs. The orange alien someone left on puss wuss crack (really?) is a nice addition to my rack. No I'm not gonna post on the internet about the #7 stopper I found on Kangaroo Temple. And I'm not gonna bitch and complain about whomever scored the # 2 Camalot my partner inadvertently left at the belay on Gallatin Tower or the stopper I was too impatient to clean on moonlight. (but if anyone found the orange metolius cam my ex girlfriends dad left on the third flat iron, I'd really like it back).

I have an ethical situation.

1. Your dead thirsty and didn't pack enough water. You happen to run across a climbing pack and a gallon jug of water at the base of a 3 pitch climb. You look up and the party is about the start the 3rd pitch. Do you help your self to the water?

2. Your at the base of a multipitch climb, stuck behind a party. As your chilling out at the base, you hear someone call rock and notice that a metolius TCU drops into the bush beside your party. Do you take the gear as booty or leave the TCU by a rock so the climber can get his gear back.

3. Your walking alongside the base of the cliff when you come across the start of a popular 3 pitch climb. There are two packs stowed away and a party is on the wall. As you walk by the clearing, you notice a half buried nut in the dirt. Do you ask the party on the wall about the nut or take it as found booty?

Just looking for some fun entertainment!!!!

Kung Phu Panda wrote:I have an ethical situation. 1. Your dead thirsty and didn't pack enough water. You happen to run across a climbing pack and a gallon jug of water at the base of a 3 pitch climb. You look up and the party is about the start the 3rd pitch. Do you help your self to the water? 2. Your at the base of a multipitch climb, stuck behind a party. As your chilling out at the base, you hear someone call rock and notice that a metolius TCU drops into the bush beside your party. Do you take the gear as booty or leave the TCU by a rock so the climber can get his gear back. 3. Your walking alongside the base of the cliff when you come across the start of a popular 3 pitch climb. There are two packs stowed away and a party is on the wall. As you walk by the clearing, you notice a half buried nut in the dirt. Do you ask the party on the wall about the nut or take it as found booty? Just looking for some fun entertainment!!!!

Water: If I was in that situation I'd snag a few swigs. I'd gladly give my water to someone if they needed and would rather someone take it if they were in that much need so I'd assume they'd do the same for me.

TCU: I'd hang onto it and if I ran into them on the way down or at the next belay I'd be happy to give it to them. I actually had this happen on a route in Red Rocks, the second wasn't experienced and left a piece. I grabbed it easily and gave it back to them when I got to the next belay. If they'd left ahead of me and not waited or we hadn't run into each other I would have had a new cam.

Nut: Leave it or toss it on their pack. Too close of proximity to obvious property to determine whether it was dropped a week ago or earlier that day.

Solid rule to live by: Can you explain what you did to a 5 year old?

If you know who it belongs to, give it back.

Otherwise it's yours.

We're not 5 year-olds here.

We just act like it.

Evan Belknap wrote:finding booty, being a pirate, is one of the last-remaining joys of the universe. Most of my rack is bootied gear, thank the climbing pirate gods—hooba jooba heebie—you're not getting it back!

+1

Hard to starboard, load the cannon, and hoist the Jolly

I'm 5... and a 1/2

I usually posted it if the booty was worth about $20 or more.

But now, if I work on the booty for more than a hour, I keep the booty to myself :D

I also check to see if someone else their posted missing gear, since someone else is the one that lost it and wants it back!

On Mescalito in June Wally was leading P3 when the sling on a BD Cliffhanger hook came untied. The hook dropped ~500 feet and landed within 10 feet of his t-shirt and shoes on a big flat rock. A little while later a guy walked over and picked it up and looked up at me. I yelled, 'Could you please put that on the t-shirt?'
He put a big rock on the t-shirt, but pocketed the hook. -It was not an expensive piece of gear, but an important part of the rack that we didn't have time to replace.
The next day at the base we ran into another team and I relayed the story of how some a$$#ole stole my hook.
'Oh hook? Red sling?' He went and got it out of his pack and handed it to me.
There was a language barrier, so he may have misunderstood me when I was yelling from 500' away. If he did understand me and still thought the hook was booty? - That sounds like an overly broad definition of 'booty'.

I like the new "norm" of getting gear back to it's previous rack, but the righteous indignation when folks don't get it back I can do without.
I have found a lot of gear over the years and gotten a lot of it back to the person who lost or left it.

But get this: You leave something out there it is litter. Before you get butthurt that it wasn't returned to you; ask yourself if you are willing to pay the $1000 littering fine first.

Personally, I'd rather folks just got better at cleaning up after themselves. I don't really want your old gear, but I certainly don't want it in my way on the climb.

Edit to add: In the early days, I'll admit that I was delighted to booty a cam and have 4 on my rack instead of 3. So I'm sure some of the young dirtbags of today are still psyched to find your gear. And keep it.

I found a dozen cars at the trailhead just littered all over the side of the road.

Try to get it back. The good karma is worth more than the booty. Also so say you booty a nut (or cam) but also loos a nut (or cam) on another route/ another day. Would you rather have someone ease's gear who's history you have no idea about or give it back to them and get yours back?

I chopped an old nylon anchor off a very popular route last month. It was attached to a nut, a tricam, and a rusty piton. I kept the nut and tricam, and I packed the nylon out. There were decent bolted chains about 7 m away horizontally along a ramp, but they are easy to miss. I imagine that a lot of people have missed them and rapped off the anchor I chopped. I'm not a local and I probably won't ever be back again. Right choice?

Tough to say. Personally, I think the person who left the nut and tri-cam just got confused and couldn't figure out how to get to the rap station. Everyone else is a sheep who couldn't figure out that someone went of route.

I was on a route and came across a small bush with a sling and a bail beener. I knew this couldn't be the rap station so I kept going up a 3rd class ramp and sure enough, there was a big tree with rap rings 30 feet away!! I kept the sling and bail beener.

Just my 2 cents