GUNKS- NEAR TRAPPs- LOST/(BASICALLY STOLEN GEAR):

Bheller,

As a fairly regular Gunks climber, I just wanted to say thanks for giving some TLC to one of the lower traffic areas. It completely blows about your gear, and don't the snarky detractors get you down. I really hope you get it returned to you!!!!!

I'll chime in. Ive had gear that I left taken, and it is what it is...I dont expect it back and nor should you. I left it there. In a public park. Therefore, and Im not trying to add wood to the fire, if someone finds it and decides to take it, it is not "stolen". Leaving gear at the Gunks is like leaving the keys in the ignition of your BMW in the Bronx. Lets say your gear was "insured" as your vehicle is (or should be)....in both of those above cases, you as the owner of said property would be found negligent and would likely not be reimbursed for said property.

Now that said, I do feel horrible that someone grabbed your gear that you intended on retrieving once the weather cleared. And If I were to stumble upon this or any post describing gear (or anything for that matter) that I found in a public place, I would absolutely return it to its rightful owner. However as soon as you made the decision to leave your property in a public place KNOWING that you took a risk, well....you must accept the consequences. Im trying to explain both sides of the coin here. I dont feel there is any need whatsoever for a heated debate nor name calling. Apparently others feel the need to chew each other out over something of absolutely zero personal value.

Now as for the fact that you were doing a public service to all the gunks climbers by replacing unsafe webbing, I commend you. However unfortunately whether you were some douche drilling for bolts, or a great guy spending your own money replacing webbing to keep yourself and others safe...makes no difference in the actual outcome.

I do hope someone see's this and gets you your gear back. I for one will keep my eyes and ears open for you

camhead wrote:and that^^^ was a ptftw.

Mark it zero!

It is pretty simple!

The rules of booty by Tradman himself: climberism.com/to-be-or-not…

Zeke wrote: Mark it zero!

MADFACE!!!!

shuminW wrote: who the hell is Tradman?

You live in CO, you would ask that question.

Not a lawyer and I don't really care if you are one. Lawyers are about as prolific as sport climbers and most lawyers just love to tout legal definitions as if they are something finite while at the same time knowing that in the end a definition can apply to a word but fitting any given situation to that word is much more difficult. If you are a lawyer then you know this as well.

I'd be willing to wager that it wouldn't be too difficult to convince a court that, absent any explanation left with the gear, one could make a reasonable presumption that gear left on a wall is abandoned. Legal definitions are sticky things (as I'm sure you well know) and I doubt that a court would make a decision on this issue based solely on the definition of the word abandoned. Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't think the issue is as cut and dried as you seem to imply.

Regardless of the intentions of the person who left it, I think most people, climbers or not, would assume that a bunch of crap, that is designed to be easily removable, hanging out of a crack high on a rock wall would be abandoned if no one else was around using it. It would not be difficult to show a history of this presumption within the climbing community itself and further show that it would be reasonable to presume the person leaving the gear behind should know this. Even if they don't like it. This wasn't a camp site that was obviously being used and someone stole his gear. They cleaned litter off a wall in my opinion.

Just to clarify...It obviously sucks that he left this gear behind and I certainly don't blame the OP for wanting to get it back. I've left gear behind because I had to bail in a hurry. Never even crossed my mind to call it stolen even though I went back for it and it was gone. Many climbers have experienced this. It's just part of the game. Whinning about it on the internets is just laughable and petty. Sorry about your gear bheller! Not sure why you'd want to kill be because of my opinion but you are entitled to yours!

i think that the mistake that bheller made was calling the gear "basically stolen". if he would have just explained what happened and said that he hoped his gear would make its way home, he would have had a better chance at getting it back. by using the word "stolen" he kind of set things up to be really polarized, and even if the person who bootied it wanted to give it back he/she would probably be embarassed to do so.

honey catches more flies than vinegar.

slim wrote:honey catches more flies than vinegar.

I've gotta try that, fruit flies are running rampant in my place...

I totally agree with you slim- although I was bummed my gear disappeared I don't think whomever took it felt like they were stealing it- its just I who "feels" like it was stolen. When we reduce the complexities of human to human communications down to typed words It it best to very carefully choose words to represent the feeling that was the underlying motive for the communication in the first place. Shame on me for lack of tact.

Yarp- I don't really want to kill you, the "feeling" behind that single nut rappel comment was that you would actually fall to the ground and just be painfully maimed:) Totally kidding.

Well said bheller! Shame on me as well for jumping your shit. Hope you get yer stuff back. Interesting ideas that your thread has brought up. (zekes comments not withstanding)

bheller wrote:I totally agree with you slim- although I was bummed my gear disappeared I don't think whomever took it felt like they were stealing it- its just I who "feels" like it was stolen. When we reduce the complexities of human to human communications down to typed words It it best to very carefully choose words to represent the feeling that was the underlying motive for the communication in the first place. Shame on me for lack of tact. Yarp- I don't really want to kill you, the "feeling" behind that single nut rappel comment was that you would actually fall to the ground and just be painfully maimed:) Totally kidding.

i know how it goes. hope you get your stuff back. you might ask that whoever grabbed it could drop it off at rock and snow, that way they won't have to feel 'on the spot'.

Jarred Peterholf wrote: You live in CO, you would ask that question.

What happened Jarred, Colorado chew you up and spit you out? Abandoned gear is booty. Sucks the dude lost his gear but like I said I would have taken it, and would have returned it under the circumstances unless I was accused of stealing it. Even on the east coast. Don't be a dick.

Zeke wrote: Mark it zero!

Bwahaha! His foot was on the line!

New Yorkers are vultures. This makes me think about the mindset of those who "basically stole" under-utilized land from indigenous people.

Camhead is right, the Gunks are a backwater. Right or wrong, people lost their minds when he left a few nuts and draws on an obscure aid route that he tried freeing a few years ago. Ben Folds encapsulated the Gunks "community" response in his classic song, "The Bitch Went Nuts." Unattended topropes are the norm here, but a few draws on a route too steep for gang topropers wrought powerful rhetoric.

Now, will someone just give Heller his gear back. If he's a good guy, he'll buy you a beer and apologize for accusing you of stealing. You'll be glad that he's nice and you'll get him a round. Slightly buzzed, you'll hatch plans to climb Matinee together next week and everybody will have a good time.

DL

It was probably some high school kids up there getting high that took your stuff.

To all those that said they would give the gear back . . . why would you take it in the first place?

To Yarp. why the hell would you carry a notepad to explain why you were leaving your stuff if you were not planning on leaving it?

Just sayin

Did someone seriously compare taking abandoned trad gear off a wall to the genocide, theft and various atrocities that were committed against Native North Americans? Wow. Melodramatic much?

And bus driver I never said I carried a notebook with me. I wouldn't bother with anything like that because I accept the fact that if shit happens I might have to bail and loose some gear. Leaving a note at the trail head that you left gear because of bad weather and plan on returning to retrieve it as soon as the weather clears would go a long ways towards insuring the safe return of you gear though.

If I came across this anchor I would most certainly take it because I would assume that it was abandoned when someone bailed. Which is exactly what happened. Simple. I personally would make an attempt to find and return it to the owner ( which I have done on at least 4 different occasions ) but if after making an effort to find the owner I was unable to get a hold of them I wouldn't hesitate to keep the gear.

i usually carry a note pad....

rgold wrote: Tradition in the Gunks ...

And I'm sure at times the Gunks had "traditions" like keeping slaves, shooting "Indians", oppressing women, etc., etc."

Traditions are not virtuous in-and-of themselves. Their virtue should be re-evaluated frequently.

In recent years, the vast majority of the country, nay, the world, has struggled to find the virtue in mandatory walk-off descents at cragging cliffs like the Gunks (which IS basically sport climbing, but I don't have time for a history lesson right now).

bus driver wrote: To all those that said they would give the gear back . . . why would you take it in the first place?

Imagine what the crags would look like if no one ever bootied the abandon gear.