Mountain Project Logo

Aid Question: Dirty Aid Ethics in the Valley

Original Post
Mark Thomas · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 3,635

I want to climb a number of short aid routes in the Valley listed in the Reid guide under the "A" ratings, sometimes with a 'diry' rack suggestion listed. Since the book lists numerous routes as such that I know now have a "C" rating, I wouldn't want to pound away prematurely at a "C" route, nor run up a still legit "A" route without the proper gear. So my conundrum is that while I am happy to attempt to climb aid routes as cleanly as possible and then use my judgement on when to resort to playing with my pitons, if a route has been re-established as a clean aid line, I wouldn't want to exercise poor form. Since I am still pretty new to aid climbing, I'd worry that I might slip into dirty aid techniques prematurely since I have limited experience with C2 and none so far with C3 (which I'm aiming to change this winter!)

Do the aid climbers on this site have any knowledge/opinions on the ethics/Valley standards here or perhaps where I can better research some of the routes?

I'm hoping to be practicing a lot of aid climbing in the Valley this winter (I'm looking for partners, btw) and many winters to come, but between wanting a wider variety of routes to choose from and avoiding the hazards of climbing on the base of El Cap in winter, I drew up a list of aid climbs from the Reid guide that I thought would be good practice.

However, the version of the Reid guide that I have lists all of the climbs with the "A" rating, and any routes where a rack is mentioned only lists a "dirty" aid rack. So far the best I've known to do is cross-reference routes with the short listing in the SuperTopo guides, but many of these routes are not in there (obviously the "C" ratings I have worked out for my question):

Dog Dik Cliff
Pink Pussycat A1 1 pitch R(36)

Kat Pinnacle
Northwest Corner 5.7 A2 1 pitch R(40)
Southwest Corner 5.7 A3+ 1 pitch R(40)

The Cookie Cliff
Coffin Nail A3+ 1 pitch R(44)
The Stigma (P1) C2 1 pitch R(45)
The Stigma A3 2 pitches R(45)

Pat & Jack Pinnacle
Sunblast A2+ 1 pitch R(53)

Middle Brother, Base (Not in winter?)
Rixon's Pinnacle: Direct South Face 5.7-5.9 C2 7 pitches R(132)
The Folly: Left Side 5.9 A3 8 pitches R(133)

Five Open Books, 2nd Tier
Mischief 5.8 A2 ? pitches R(150)

Geek Towers (Not in winter)
Right Side 5.10 A2 ? pitches R(157)

Church Bowl
Church Bowl Tree C1 (5.10a/b) 1 pitch ST(117); R(166)
More Balls Than Brains A3- 1 pitch R(166)
Bishop’s Balcony 5.5 A3 2 pitches? R(167)

Staircase Falls Area
Old A2 A2 1 pitch R(242)
Old A5 A3 1 pitch R(242)
Old A3 A3+ 1 pitch R(242)

vincent L. · · Redwood City · Joined Jan 2005 · Points: 560

Keep climbing intro aid routes . What walls have you done ? Obviously there are some classic walls in Yosemite where you will be ran out of town if you choose to nail , The Nose , West Face Leaning Tower ,Triple Direct , Spire Tip , South Face Washington Column etc. I understand your conundrum though , when is it the right time to nail and when do you sack up and try to aid clean with possibly very tenuous gear ? Obviously some experts have climbed Zodiac clean but 99% of people who do Zodiac still brings pitons .

IMHO I say build up a solid background of clean aid climbing, you will be better equipped to know what your clean gear can get you up , and when a piton is almost mandatory , like when aiding an expanding flake , you don't want to put any cams behind any seriously expanding flakes .

Of the routes you mentioned , Church Bowl Tree is a great C1 pitch , right near the road and probably do-able almost year round . And if you are really itching to hammer in some iron , find some boulders or less than worthy choss in the forest and have at it .

Good Luck

kuus kuus · · Steamboat Springs · Joined Sep 2007 · Points: 535
vincent L. wrote: Obviously there are some classic walls in Yosemite where you will be ran out of town if you choose to nail , The Nose
You mean I shouldn't have brought a hammer on The Nose?
vincent L. · · Redwood City · Joined Jan 2005 · Points: 560

What for , did you build something ?

Mark Thomas · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 3,635

For now I'd be preferring to focus more on practicing clean aid, but for most of the climbs listed, it is unclear how doable they are done clean. SuperTopo only lists a handful of clean routes, and most of these are off limits in winter since they are on the base of El Cap (I don't like ice raining on me, and it was bad enough in May!), so I'd be wanting to venture onto these other short aid climbs in Merced Canyon where it is unknown whether the route has been done/re-established clean. They look to be more obscure, so it's not like I'll be nailing my way up Nutcracker, but don't want to be jumping the gun on cracking pitons in the Valley either.

I have the beginnings of a 'dirty' aid rack from alpine climbing that I will be expanding and wanting to practice with in the future (for desert towers), so I'd probably be stocking up on the recommended rack of LAs, Angles, etc. for a given aid climb in the Reid book where these are listed, bring along my clean aid gear and clean aid as much as I can and then switch to nailing if I can't find a reasonable body-weight clean aid placement.

Churchbowl Tree is doable year round, based on what I saw throughout last winter, and I think that one will be my main focus for clean aiding & cleaning laps to work on efficiency with some base times for reference. It even would be good to do by headlamp since it is so short and easy to follow, so this winter I was thinking of free-climbing during the day on most Valley trips, and then getting in some aid after dark on that one (fortunately if I don't have a partner for that, I know the route is good for aid soloing as well :-) ). Still, every now & then I'd want to venture out and try an unknown line during the daytime.

Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256

If a route goes clean then you should aspire to do it clean as well. Nailing on a route that goes clean is frowned upon, however there are lots of grey areas. Many routes rely on fixed gear to go clean, if that fixed gear is missing then you have to find a way to get through it, the last resort is to break out the hammer. An example, my partner and I climbed Zodiac hammerless (did not take a hammer), we relied on clean gear (camhooks, hybrid aliens, tricams, and hand placing pitons), however parties use the hammer on that route daily. It is all about skill and style, try pushing your abilities and do the route clean, it can be much more rewarding then using the hammer and making it A1. I will say however that if there is a bad fall potential as in you may hit something or swing into an object if you rip several pieces of gear, it may be wise to hammer in a piton. Overall be conservative in your nailing, too many people get carried away and excited about bashing in some pins instead of using their creativity to get through a section or route clean. Do your haomework and research the route and ask other climbers. Spare the rock.....

Bryan G · · June Lake, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 6,167

Def post this on the supertopo forums if you haven't already. There's a lot more people over there that will be able to give you beta on the routes you're interested in.

Mark Thomas · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 3,635

Will do! It's hard to keep the posts from being buried there, but if I just know whether a given route actually goes clean, that will save me most of my uncertainty here :-)

Ben Doyle · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 10

There are so many fantastic clean aid routes in Yosemite Valley and in Southern Utah. For the Valley I recommend buying offset cams, hooks, and cam hooks long before investing in pins. For the desert, I recommend buying a couple sets of offset nuts, especially dmm sizes 4-6(brass) and 7-8(aluminum). After you have done the Valley clean classics (west face leaning tower, the prow, zodiac, nose, salathe, ten days after, etc), the modern basic iron rack is composed most importantly of beaks (esp medium and large), and sawed angles. I believe that these are the modern basics because these can often be placed clean, or with just a few gentle taps of the hammer. Most lost arrow cracks can now be securely climbed with a combination of cam hooks, small cams (000 c3 useful), and small offset nuts. With a strong rack of beaks, knifeblades are only useful for horizontal cracks. Beaks are consistently more secure than knifeblades, more easily placed, and less damaging to the rock.
I hope this helps.

Ben Doyle · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 10
Mark P Thomas wrote:Will do! It's hard to keep the posts from being buried there, but if I just know whether a given route actually goes clean, that will save me most of my uncertainty here :-)
It is true that sometimes "Clean" routes require a bit of fixed gear to go clean at the stated grade. The Prow is a good example because it require a few heads or beaks to go clean at C2, but usually the route is "in condition" to go clean at this grade (meaning the necessary fixed gear is usually fixed).
Supertopo trip reports are excellent resources for determining the condition of a route.
Personnaly, when doing a fixed-gear-dependent clean route, I usually put contigency gear in the bottom of my haul bag. This contingency gear generally includes a hammer, a few beaks, and a few sawed angles, and sometimes a heading kit (route dependent variable).
When the hammer is in the bottom of the bag I am more likely to unlock the clean solution, though I am not hosed if its too hard.
If you want any route specific spray downs I may be able to help.
Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60
Ben Doyle wrote: Supertopo trip reports are excellent resources for determining the condition of a route. Personnaly, when doing a fixed-gear-dependent clean route, I usually put contigency gear in the bottom of my haul bag. This contingency gear generally includes a hammer, a few beaks, and a few sawed angles, and sometimes a heading kit (route dependent variable). When the hammer is in the bottom of the bag I am more likely to unlock the clean solution, though I am not hosed if its too hard. If you want any route specific spray downs I may be able to help.
Bingo. Ben's spot on, both about the bottom of the bag stash and checking on Supertopo for updated info. I would put a few beaks on your rack, however, rather than at the bottom of the bag. They can make for great placements, even without the hammer.

BTW, I think it's great that you're wanting to adhere to the clean aid standards, but there really aren't that many short aid routes that get well traveled in anticipation of doing a subsequent wall. People sometimes climb the first pitch of a trade route, etc., but many will just go climb something that goes clean and figure it out along the way.
Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759

Re-posting of a post re-posted in 2008, but worth re-reading:
original thread: Walls are like Beautiful Women (Karl's Post)

excerpted:
"Beautiful big walls are like beautiful women-

Different ones have different ethics about being nailed.

and they can be fickle about it too. First it's ok to nail one until one day somebody makes an honest clean wall out of them, and then they don't want to be nailed by everybody any more.

But others only like to go clean with the really bold guys and but the rest of the guys still nail em cause they aren't good church boys.

Now if they've been nailed enough, they might go for free, and then they act like they don't want to be nailed anymore. They pretend that the nailing that made them what they are today was a bad thing.

but if they haven't been nailed enough, or if they've been been drilled instead of nailed, they might be tough to get for free. They might have to be nailed or drilled in different parts if guys want them free.

So we sort of know the rules: no means no, except when it means yes. Virgin walls are supposed to wait until they are ready to go in a clean way but some guys get too excited and nail them anyway.

It's a complicated world these days. Back in the day, you just nailed em and it was a long time before the next guy got to nail em, but now it's a big orgy of guys and gals doing it all over the place, all the time. There's the benefits of Friends and some folks still don't use enough protection.

Even though many believe that they only want it free, they get flack for doing it doggy style. They for a set of jugs after the same tired pickup lines.

Morality, politics, it's all there. Some guys get aliens to do their toughest jobs and then others say the folks shouldn't use them.

God help us

Karl

Edit

Some idiots have suggested that there is sexual innuendo contained in the post above. If I intended on doing such a thing, there would have been jokes about Hookers and Heads"

Mark Thomas · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 3,635
SeanKuus wrote: You mean I shouldn't have brought a hammer on The Nose?
Just on Nutcracker. :-p
Mark Thomas · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 3,635

Ben Doyle - Thanks for the rack recommendations! I have a full clean rack right now including 1 set of offset nuts & 1 set of offset cams. I have 1 full set of Bugaboos & KBs that I had been playing around with for some alpine stuff (with practice placing & cleaning with my ice tool - just got my aid hammer & funkness device this month!), and I was wondering what strategy to take for growing an iron rack. Especially starting with pieces that can still be rigged for creative clean placements.

Right now I'm not too interested in doing routes with a lot of nailing in the Valley (might change as I do more?), but the desert sandstone towers sure seem to still require a lot of it so I'd want to have a rack & practice just for those shorter aid routes.

Fat Trad - One reason I want to do these shorter aid lines is just to isolate developing those aid skills for routes beyond just walls. Plus they seem like nice ways to have a day of free climbing & aid climbing combined. I can see what you mean with the general aid climbing tendencies in the Valley though e.g Little Cottonwood Canyon in the Wasatch Range, UT, seems to have a lot more aid & mixed aid & free routes of 1-6 pitches than the Valley does. I figured most people in the Valley did their learnin' right on the bigger stones.

Maybe it is mostly because I am still a little 'iffy' with exposure, but I like the idea of practicing A2/C2 & A3/C3 on single pitch climbs, but maybe it is actually a better idea to be learning that stuff a little higher off the ground :-)

Gregger - hilarious! Karl's excerpt is a keeper :-D

Thanks for the advice guys!

Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256

A good clean aid rack:

2-3 sets of hybid aliens: great in pin scars
2 sets of Cam Hooks (narrow and wide) for Lost Arrow size cracks
1 Set of the smaller ball nutz: great for lost arrow size cracks
Sawed Angles: various sizes for hand placing
1 set of smaller tri cams: work in boxed out shallow pin scars
Lots of beaks for hand placing, the large ones are great.
2 sets of HB offset micros
2 sets of HB/DMM alluminum offsets
A good selection of hooks from small ones for bat holes to large ones for big edges and flakes.

Rob Dillon · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 760

Supertopo is a way better resource for answers to questions about specific routes. I can tell you that the Coffin Nail has gone free and shouldn't get nailed; the Stigma is a great clean aid exercise; the base of middle brother is a great place to get hit by rockfall; the slog up to the Kat Pinnacle should be a poison oak museum; and there is a great list of introductory aid lines somewhere on supertopo.

If you're gonna 'practice' nailing go find a roadcut that no one cares about and pound on it instead. The gear doesn't know it's only 5' off the ground and you can learn a lot in a short time without fukking around with a belay.

Mark Thomas · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 3,635

Thanks for the beta on the other routes!

Rob Dillon wrote: If you're gonna 'practice' nailing go find a roadcut that no one cares about and pound on it instead. The gear doesn't know it's only 5' off the ground and you can learn a lot in a short time without fukking around with a belay.
I just noticed last weekend how nice the rock beside Highway 120 on Tioga Pass looks for nailing for the sake of practice nailing. Lots of cracks of all sorts of sizes, right off the ground, some solid splitters and some in looser rock. I wonder if I could nail there without being hassled?
Ben Doyle · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 10

I imagine you mean outside of the park boundary in Lee Vining Canyon. If you are out of sight of the road you are much less likely to be hassled. Although, I don't think anything in Lee Vining Canyon qualifies as "road cuts that no one cares about."
The trade routes in Yosemite Valley are mostly clean, and should be done in the cleanest style possible. For this reason I think that learning to nail comes after accruing experience clean climbing. Go do the clean trade routes. The Prow, the West Face, Zodiac. Like you said in your original post, you "wouldn't want to excercise poor form." Don't bother learning to nail. Nailing is not rocket science, and when the time comes you will be ready, especially if you have an adept understanding of clean aid.

Go forth and climb clean.

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60
Mark P Thomas wrote:Thanks for the beta on the other routes! I just noticed last weekend how nice the rock beside Highway 120 on Tioga Pass looks for nailing for the sake of practice nailing. Lots of cracks of all sorts of sizes, right off the ground, some solid splitters and some in looser rock. I wonder if I could nail there without being hassled?
So let's see if I have this right. Rather than climbing an existing aid route that takes pins and probably already has pin scars, you're going to climb a clean crack (albeit roadside) and slam some pins into it?
Mark Thomas · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 3,635
Fat Dad wrote: So let's see if I have this right. Rather than climbing an existing aid route that takes pins and probably already has pin scars, you're going to climb a clean crack (albeit roadside) and slam some pins into it?
The cracks aren't that clean, or at least not for that long. They are one level above choss, IMO, and are on the section of Hwy 120 outside of Yosemite (e.g. around camp 9).

I imagine that even an existing 'dirty' aid route would be better reserved for climbers who can aid without damaging the rock too much, with such bashing left for crappy cracks. Wouldn't it be better to be damaging such rock right alongside a roadway anyways, rather than hiking more into the backcountry?

I have two aims here:

One is to learn to aid climb as cleanly as possible - and totally clean, or bail, if the route has been established or re-established as clean and I can't do it as such.

The other is to learn dirty techniques in appropriate locations since they are still needed on some routes. Apart from the ordering of starting with clean techniques and moving to dirty ones in terms of style, I don't see a reason to not to practice the techniques in parallel so long as you don't slide into lazy nailing. I imagine honoring existing ratings for a route pretty much prevents that?
MattB · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 55

Fwiw, the "C" rating is kinda new, and often depends on a "f" meaning fixed heads or pins. Nail away, if it makes you feel manly, or go clean if it makes you feel manlier. I'm happier hooking, nutting and cam hooking myself.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northern California
Post a Reply to "Aid Question: Dirty Aid Ethics in the Valley"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.