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The road to becoming a guide

Original Post
Josh Olson · · Durango, CO · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 255

So I've started the road to becoming a guide, and I was looking for some personal experiences with being a guide, as well as the route that you took to get there.
For right now I'm interviewing with a couple of gyms and gear shops to get the ball rolling, and I am leading finger cracks into the 10's and fists into 9's, as well as 9's on the faces. I try to get out as much as I can, but being three hours from climbing has put a damper on more than being a weekend warrior, hopefully moving in the coming month to get stronger.
Any tips or advice or words of encouragement are greatly appreciated, especially from those with guiding experience.

dorseyec · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2009 · Points: 5

Who are you going to guide living three hours from the closest rock?

Ali Jaffri · · Westminster, CO · Joined Jan 2005 · Points: 695

Josh,
I posted this a lil while back on this thread: mountainproject.com/v/guide…

A lot of us have thought about becoming a guide and the best way to do so is in the US is through the AMGA.

Having said that, and I dont want to offend any professional mountain guides by saying this - being a guide in this economy means slim pickings. There are tons of highly qualified guides and not enough people wanting to take professional courses.

I run a small mountain guiding service to arrange logistics for those wanting to climb in the Karakoram, Hindukush and Himalayas of northern Pakistan. I havent had a client for expeditions since 2006!

My friends who own guiding services in Pakistan such as Nanga Parbat adventures or Nazir Sabir expeditions are hurting bigtime....and expeditions is where you make the money.

My advice is IF you see yourself in a lifestyle where you will need to have a side job besides being a guide, but you get to do something fulfilling, then the AMGA is the best (and only) option. Those guys are pros and the courses are well worth it.

Go on their website and everything is chalked out for you.

jack roberts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 0

Two things you need to do first before we have this conversation........

Click onto Supertopo and read the thread "The Life of a Teton guide, Willi Unsold"
and then get a copy of Gaston Rebuffat's book "Starlight and Storm".........

Read these first and then maybe think about leading "mandatory 5.12" and working out in climbing gyms to get stronger than you need to be......

Oh, and finish that college degree first before you coil your first guide's rope..........Years of guiding will beat you up like a construction worker who has been framing houses for years. You will need some other trade to fall back on............

Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0

There are none so zealotrous as the recently converted. It seems there's a point after one has been climbing a couple years where one considers guiding as a career. Thankfully this passes for most. Here's my advice: climb and ski in as many places and conditions as you can, for a decade. Then think about guiding. The AMGA prerequisites for a course should seem comically light-duty, not a tick list you're checking off. If you have the personal or family resources to accomplish this, then you can afford to guide for a living. Having wealthy parents or marrying a wealthy person helps a lot, or develop a taste for cat food (the cheap kind, not the nice stuff you feed your cat).

Andy Hansen · · Longmont, CO · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 3,130

Josh, I wouldn't let all these naysayers get you down. I must begin by saying that although I haven't been guiding for as many years as some of the guides in the world, I have still put in some time guiding and have very much enjoyed it.

Climbing a lot is a great way to get started on becoming a better climber but that doesn't necessarily make you a good guide. I've met plenty of strong climbers who have horrible interpersonal skills thus making them poor candidates for guides. There are a slew of skills required to be a guide and of course climbing is one of them other great qualities include patience, perseverance, compassion, honesty, positivity and having a level head in order to think your way out of adverse situations- not just climb out of them.

I cannot climb 5.12 on any day of the week. In fact I probably only climb 5.12 once a week. Granted I don't have the clientele who are looking to climb 5.12. But, I'd say there are other technical skills that can get you out of certain situations- if you possess the knowledge of said skills. The AMGA posts their prerequisites for each skill discipline (Rock, Alpine & Ski). For starters you could pursue your Single Pitch Instructor certification and from there work on the prerequisites for the more advanced disciplines. While you're in school and working on your degree you could possess a Single Pitch Instructor cert and get your foot in the door as far as guiding in Wisconsin & Minnesota goes. Once you've finished college move to a town that has an abundance of rock and work on the new skills you'll need to achieve your next certification.

And like others have said medical certifications are a definite must. Basic first aid is something you'll need for the SPI and from there it'd be wise to look into a Wilderness First Responder cert. Although it's a lot of money to pay for these courses it's to your benefit to have these certs- you won't get hired without them.

And, yes, guiding takes a lot out on your body and perhaps even your mind. It's likely that if you guide a good amount you'll lose that drive to pursue your own climbing goals but stay focused, separate work from play and have goals in each area and try not to be too ambitious with your climbing goals. Be patient, stay positive and enjoy your life as a guide. You don't have to eat cat food to survive- vegetables, pasta, rice and fish do not cost that much and are fucking delicious.

That's what I've got to say. Most importantly don't let others discourage you from pursuing what you'd like to do.

Josh Olson · · Durango, CO · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 255

Thanks for all of the advice.
Long story short, moving to Madison, WI which is an hour from Devil's Lake. I have been getting out there as much as possible, and I have a decent understanding of the east bluffs, working on the west bluffs, and hopefully the bouldering soon.

johnL, I'm doing it for love of the sport. I really enjoy taking newer people out and getting them up the routes they want to get on. Nothing beats watching that 5.8 climber pull themselves through a 5.9 crux and being elated.

I'm looking into the AMGA, the only problem is being in Wisconsin, they don't exactly offer courses all that often. I've looked through the single pitch instructor, and those requirements are comical, so I just have to get the money together and get it done. But, that probably means a trip out west, which ain't exactly free.

Josh Kornish, amga.com/programs/SPI.php, 18 for single pitch instructor.

Thanks for the reading Ali, I'll give that a read soon.

Jack, I've read the Life of a Teton Guide, but I need to get Starlight and Storm. The mandatory 5.12 seems like its in order to become a full fledged guide, and I need five years experience for that, so hopefully relocating to a place with a gym and some good old fashioned hard work will get me there. I dream of climbing 13's on gear, so that is the plan whether or not I continue to dream of being a guide. I also enjoy photography, and I am starting to create an "adventure photography" portfolio, so hopefully I can use that as a secondary source of income. I am also looking into working in a gear shop to pay the bills, because the lack of clients is a definite concern.

Tico, my parents have enough money, and I can eat/live comfortably with little money. I don't want to lean on my parents, they've worked for what they have and I want to do the same.

Andy, not climbing 5.12 at the lake is expected, sorry to hear about your bummed elbow. The vegetables, pasta list doesn't include beer though, so I might have a problem, although schlitz is around 75 cents a can.

My general plan, for those that care, is to use guiding to live in a bunch of different towns, first Madison, then I'm thinking Fort Collins, then I'll keep on going. Towards the time my body starts to give out, I'd like to eventually own a gym/shop. So experience everywhere and traveling are big things to me.

Andy Hansen · · Longmont, CO · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 3,130

What is so "comical" about the requirements to becoming a single-pitch instructor? The "road" must begin somewhere, right? Sometimes when I talk to climbers they talk as if climbing 5.8 means nothing but to the beginning climber this means the world. I don't think these prerequisites should be considered comical. Without this knowledge there is great potential for climbers to be injured and perhaps die. You'd be surprised how much you'll learn taking an SPI course and you'd also be surprised to find out that the AMGA did in fact send a representative out here this summer for an SPI course. So, save your cash for the course and keep your eyes open for another opportunity next summer for another SPI course at the Lake.

Also, beer is especially cheap when the clients buy.

Todd Glew · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 45

Haha Tico, hot sauce goes a long way with cat food....most guiding is for wierdos. Waking up in the middle of the night, or even better 11pm, to walk with bumbly clients up a mountain. Its not as glorious as it sounds. You should go play in the mtns for years and flip pizzas or tune skis or whatever to make it work. Once you've made all the mistakes you can in the mtns without killing yourself, then your ready to be a guide. I wouldnt recommend getting into climbing or backcountry skiing to be a guide. You will probably make just as much money working scrubbing toilets and can count on having steady work. Go have fun in the mtns my little boyz, then think about being a guide, when your too wierd to do anything else.

jack roberts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 0

I'm not trying to discourage anyone here from being a guide.........so let's get that straight from the beginning. I've been climbing since 1968. I've been guiding on and off since 1980 and have been guiding full time with my own company for 12 years..........It's a wonderful life and a great way to make a living but it does come with a cost and there are many other professions where you will earn more money.

With my years of guiding I feel like I have some knowledge in this subject. If I were to become a professional guide now I would NOT go through the AMGA but I would get my full guides certification through the IFMGA or the UIAGM. Why? You can get a higher quality education through those guide organizations than you will through the AMGA and you will be able to guide internationally. Right now having AMGA certification does not entitle you to guide in Europe, Canada or anywhere else..........Sure you can get grandfathered into the UIAGM once you have your full AMGA certs but you will be receive a more complete education going through another organization.

AMGA certification currently is not necessary for many areas in the USA and having the AMGA certification won't necessarily mean you can charge more for your services. All this will change in the future but right now having that certification only means you have an edge over an uncertified guide in a hiring situation. So get your international certification and start earning more money right away.

Be aware that in this country it is getting more difficult to make a living wage as a guide certified or not. As rock climbing, mountaineering and many other outdoor sports become more popular and mainstream the price that a guide can charge in this country is less and less. That isn't 100% true for everywhere but it is more difficult to charge what guide services are worth when the customer does not discriminate between guides and guide services. Guide services compete against all sorts of other recreational facilitators who can and do charge much less money for the same sort of climbing experience as the actual "guide services". If you go out on your own you have to be able to constantly reinvent yourself and what you can offer so as to be able to charge what your services are worth.

Now back to the mandatory 5.12. It's great if you can do lead at that grade. More power to you and especially if that is the grade you are trad climbing at. I still say though that climbing at that level is not necessary for guiding.
I think the AMGA requires a leading grade of mid-5.10 and UIAGM of mid-5.11.
So long as you know that the first rule of guiding is that "the client is out to kill you and that the second rule of climbing is to never forget rule number 1". So a guide always climbs as if he or she were soloing....................

Back to the physical aspect of guiding..........if you are in this profession for life you just have to take care of yourself mentally and physically. There is a work ethic among guides that is similar to carpenters. When there is work you keep on guiding until you hit the next dry spell and there isn't any. I know more and more guides who work themselves into the ground because ya gotta get the work while and when you can. You just have to figure out how you want to feel when you are 50 years old and still (hopefully) love to climb and keep wandering in the mountains doing difficult routes.........Sometimes the most difficult part of guiding is to remember to take personal trips into the mountains and not work so much. To keep something extra in the tank and not be running on fumes.

I'd agree with Andy in saying that being a strong technical climber is not the same as being a great or even a good guide. And that many skills other than those related to climbing are necessary. Often I've found that the skills I use to keep my marriage successful are the ones most used in guiding. I've worked alongside many a guide who climbed 2 or 3 grades harder than me and many of them just did not have the patience, understanding desire etc to be the kind of guide I'd want to be tied into.........

By all means check out the guiding profession and see if it is a good fit for you but keep the back door open just in case...........

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Josh Olson wrote: I really enjoy taking newer people out and getting them up the routes they want to get on. Nothing beats watching that 5.8 climber pull themselves through a 5.9 crux and being elated.
Ah, but the real test is how long you can stay excited coaxing 5.2 climbers up that tricky 5.3 that you're set up on every Saturday.
Todd Glew · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 45

And yes patience and accepted risk. Clients are out there to kill you! Just ask Tico, he had a client yard on him above a gaping shrund on the "great one." Guiding isnt the safest profession. You put your ass on the line for the clients mountain adventure. Its a totally strange profession, but you should def try it out. Maybe you will like it! Best of luck to you young lad.

Todd Glew · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 45

Gunkiemike, thats sooo true.

Josh Olson · · Durango, CO · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 255
Andy Hansen wrote:What is so "comical" about the requirements to becoming a single-pitch instructor?
I was being flippant with Tico's words. I've had enough 5.10 moments on 5.8s to know every climb needs attention. I meant to convey that I am confident in my abilities, to the point that I am not terribly worried about the single pitch requirements. I saw that there was a guiding course at the lake. (APEX brought them in?) I don't know how often that is going to happen, so I'm not planning on counting on it.

And in regards to the 5.8 through the 5.9 crux, or much easier terrain, that is a specific example I have in my head. You do bring u pa good point caughtinside, finishing up a project does feel extremely good. However, I find that loving personal accomplishment and somebody else finding theirs with your help tie in together. Living vicariously through others and being able to relate through that elation is a pretty great feeling, especially with good people that you want to see succeed.
Andy Hansen · · Longmont, CO · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 3,130
The Larry wrote: Although I can make a mean Latte.
Yeah, me too. This is my back up plan as a degree in Linguistics isn't rife with opportunities.
Josh Olson · · Durango, CO · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 255
JLP wrote: Are you living with your parents right now?
Paying rent and cooking on my own, yes. Helpful, they didn't make me commit for a 12 month lease.
Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Andy Hansen wrote: Yeah, me too. This is my back up plan as a degree in Linguistics isn't rife with opportunities.
No, but it does let you use words like "rife" with a straight face.
Eli Helmuth · · Ciales, PR · Joined Aug 2001 · Points: 3,441

I respect all of JR's words of encouragement and wisdom as he's been at it for a long time.

For myself, after 22 yrs. (thus far) of full-time profession guiding, I wouldn't trade it for anything as it's been the most amazing journey... but it's dangerous, very difficult work that very few folks are capable of, or want to do full-time. You have to be more than a little bit crazy about climbing and/or skiing to try and reach the minimum level of expertise, and the necessary job skills of patience, empathy, and group leadership can be difficult to achieve consistently while under personal duress.

As far as getting started: Most of us (US guides) lived in the dirt for a long time when we were younger, climbing the longest routes in Yosemite, Red Rocks, the Cascades, Tetons, Wind Rivers, and Canadian Rockies (all affordable), not because you have to, but because you have a passion for being in wild and big places on rock, ice, and snow.

Time spent sport climbing, bouldering, and in places like Ouray are of little help in this career path- navigation, glacier travel, snow climbing, backcountry skiing, avalanche science, multi-week backcountry climbing trips, international travel, and high altitude mountaineering are just some of what you need to know and medicine is less of an emphasis because we rarely spend time on emergencies.

Many of us sowed our oats teaching for Outward Bound or NOLS which is invaluable experience as a guide in developing teaching, group leadership, LNT living, and risk management skills. I have no trust fund or outside assistance (feel free to sign me up) and have earned every penny with sweat; but I lived on nothing for many years while I learned how to climb by doing it full-time. Just weekends will never get you there. We ate apples off the trees in Curry Village and collected cans on rest days to pay for rice and beans...no regrets.

Investing in AMGA type training to start your climbing career by learning solid risk management techniques will keep you from having to relearn everything when you pursue guiding and will keep you much safer while getting there. The AMGA is a bit investment in a career and I haven't met anyone yet who's gone for it and had regrets about the costs of time, money, and the humility that comes from training with skilled professionals from around the world.

I'm not unique in the guiding profession in that I've been able to climb 12+/13- trad consistently the last 10 years, 12 trad the previous decade, and started leading trad 5.10 in '85. Hundreds of grade IV rock and mountain routes are necessary prerequisites, not just dozens. Being able to climb decently does help very much with my daily guiding and coaching which is typically from 5.7 to 5.11 trad/sport, up to grade III- many days a week. At different times in my career, up to 50 out of 60 days in the summer were on grade III 5.8 routes/link-ups or harder. The majority of my ski clients are solid to expert skiers/boarders while I (hopefully) judge correctly which slopes are safe enough to slide down and ski cut slab avalanches sometimes daily.

It would be easy to die any day on the job, accidentally kill my companions, they can kill themselves (skiing, etc.), or the mountains can kill us all (rockfall, seracs). I've lost more than a few colleagues and friends.

Pay for all this nonsense is typically commiserate with experience, abilities and certifications which can range from below 20k to 100k+ It just depends on your motivation, employment situation, and abilities. Sometimes you don't want to think about the hourly wage!

Feel free to PM if you're serious and want to chat on the phone about the career potential as I've been coaching new guides for a while.

Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061

Guiding is the quickest way to ruin something you love.

Whether climbing, fishing, hunting, teaching an instrument (same thing as guiding, really), whatever your passion might be...it screws it up. Unless that passion is truly "teaching others", in which case your talents (and career) would be better served being an actual teacher. Good luck, and have fun getting to know your local food bank employees.

Terry Parker · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2006 · Points: 0

Josh, I thought I'd give you my perspective as someone who has hired guides. I have hired guides in Colorado, Wyoming and Nevada. I hired my first guide in my mid-forties, he was a newly minted guide in his mid-twenties at Red Rocks (non AMGA certified, but a very good climber with lots of big wall experience and had rigging down to a fine art). He was very new to the job and very enthusiastic and I had a blast climbing 5.10, which I would have never attempted on my own (during our initial phone call I told him something in the 5.7 to 5.9 range and he convinced me to try the 5.10 climb). Over the next 10 years I hired him 4 more times when our schedules aligned. Over that time he became AMGA certified, both rock and alpine. In his mid 30's, he is now married and only guides part time. I saw him loose some his enthusiasm over the years, to the point of where he apologized to me the last time I hired him. The biggest wear on him, he stated, was the clients. You will get good clients that you will develop a friendship with and there will be the rest that are demanding and look to you as hired help and not a climbing partner, but with the expectations of entitlement. He is still the only guide I like to climb with. The other guides I hired were already a bit jaded from too much client catering and I did not develop a rapport or enjoy the climb as much. All the guides were very nice and professional, but always looking at me with the squinty eye (probably hoping I would not get them or myself killed or injured)and aloof.

Having said the above, my first guide had a blast for the first 5 or so years and worked very hard to make a decent living. That is not the problem, you will have to work hard no matter what profession you choose if you want to make a decent living. The problem will be to maintain your attitude of enthusiasm for the profession. Your clients will notice. You are young enough that you will have no problem getting the skill set you need and have a good time doing it. Maintain the enthusiasm and focus, and you will be successful for as long as you want.

Josh Olson · · Durango, CO · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 255

This is all great advice. I have talked to a lot of climbers that got into working at a gym, and then liked the sport less and less. That is a concern, but I really do love the sport, and I feel that my passion isn't going to dwindle for quite a while. (hopefully)

I hear what you guys are saying about weekends are not enough. I lived an hour from real climbing and had a gym that I climbed at 5 nights a week, unless I could get outside. Money got tight, so I decided to do some welding for the summer to get a base of money so that I can take the next step. I will definitely be climbing daily, fingers and shoulders allowing, to get strong.

As far as the soft skills, leadership, cool head under pressure and all that jazz, I have developed these skills through scouting (woo eagle!!), as well as technical backpacking/camping skills. I understand that I need to expand into higher elevation trips, and leadership isn't a skill that is mastered, but one that is furthered, but I feel that I have a great base of knowledge that will be easy to build on in the future. Through UWSP, I also took a bunch of adventure education classes, which got into the whole teaching aspect of guiding. (Before somebody tells me to finish college, not an option. I can't afford it, and being the average white male means scholarships are hard to come by. There's more to this, but I don't want to bore everybody more than I already have.

Eli, I hear you about the Grade III and above climbs, but I live in Wisconsin, so Grade I is all I have at my disposal. It is really great to hear from you though, I've heard a lot of good things.

I can't move out west right now, my resume only has metalworking experience at one place on and off for the last 5 years, so getting work out there has been a struggle. Plus, I spent the last six months climbing in WI, making sure that it is what I want to do, so I have to rebuild my bank account for a car and yada yada yada...

I really appreciate the helpful responses. It is amazing how much of a community this place truly is, especially when things have a huge impact on someones life.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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