No Hands GriGri

Matthew Seymour wrote: 9.8 rope (yeah yeah misuse, fine you win the fine print, but how many people use 9.8's with gri gri's? A lot that I have seen)

Just because lots of people are doing it doesn't make it proper use of a gri gri. Sorry.

Anyone else?

Yarp wrote: Really Jay? If you can come up with one real, actual failure of a Gri Gri, and I mean not a failure that occurred because of misuse, but an honest to god failure where the Gri Gri failed to lock onto the rope in a normal TR or lead situation, then I will delete my account and never again post on MP. If not, you owe me an apology for calling me a moron. Come on. Just come up with ONE. Heard from a friend of a friend stories don't count. I want to see verification of death because a Gri Gri failed.

Cute ploy raising the bar from grigri failure to "death because of a grigri failure,"

I've already posted that I've seen a no-hands grigri failure. The climber lived, so I guess it's ambiguous whether you have to delete your account or not. I'm guessing you'll opt for "not."

Jay

Yarp wrote: Just because lots of people are doing it doesn't make it proper use of a gri gri. Sorry. Anyone else?

First of all, Petzl has stated for as long as I can remember that ropes down to 9.7 mm are "acceptable" for the Grigri I, so a 9.8 is considered proper use by Petzl. Secondly, as one who condones hands-off use of the grigri, you are in no position to dictate what is "proper use" of the device.

Jay

Jay Tanzman wrote: Cute ploy raising the bar from grigri failure to "death because of a grigri failure,

I didn't edit my post. That's what I originally posted so no ploy here. All I want to hear about is ONE VERIFIABLE failure of a Gri Gri to lock under load when it is being used properly.

Jay Tanzman wrote: as one who condones hands-off use of the grigri, you are in no position to dictate what is "proper use" of the device. Jay

Yer gonna have to point out for me where I condoned hands free use of the Gri Gri. I don't remember ever posting that and I sure as hell don't take my brake hand off the rope when I'm belaying regardless of what device I'm using. That would just be stupid.

The point I'm trying to make that seems to be swooshing over your head is that Gri Gri's are a very simple mechanism that are designed to do one simple thing. They do it extremely well...if used properly. I haven't seen, read or heard of a single case in which the mechanism failed to do what it is designed to do by the manufacturer. I could be wrong. I know that hundreds of people have been dropped while being belayed by someone using a Gri Gri but in every single case, it seems, that either the belayer caused the Gri Gri to demonstrate one of it's fail modes by interfering with the working of the device or the rope that was being used in it was smaller than what Petzl designed it to work with.

Somebody show me the documented case and I'll go away for ever.

John Wilder wrote: regardless, imho a belay is when you are literally holding someone's life in your hand. its not something to be taken lightly- keep yer fucking hand on the brake. its not that much to ask.

+1

I don't care what the device

and for YARP

thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?i…

Yarp wrote: Really Jay? If you can come up with one real, actual failure of a Gri Gri, and I mean not a failure that occurred because of misuse, but an honest to god failure where the Gri Gri failed to lock onto the rope in a normal TR or lead situation, then I will delete my account and never again post on MP. If not, you owe me an apology for calling me a moron. Come on. Just come up with ONE. Heard from a friend of a friend stories don't count. I want to see verification of death because a Gri Gri failed.

Yarp wrote:All I want to hear about is ONE VERIFIABLE failure of a Gri Gri to lock under load when it is being used properly.

Okay the bar seems to be moving around a little bit, but...

JPVallone wrote:and for YARP...www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1547

Oh, Snap! I think that meets the criteria. Guess you'll have to close this troll account, and come up with a new troll name.

Yarp wrote:This might be the dumbest thread ever. Have none of you idiots heard that Gri Gri's are used to rope solo (aid, free, and TR) all the time by scores and scores of people? If they didn't lock don't you think that hearing of another Gri Gri death would be a common thing? If they didn't lock do you think anyone would use one?

This might be the dumbest post ever. Have you ever actually used a Gri-Gri to rope solo(TR or lead?) There's a reason everyone with a shred of intelligence ties backup knots. Because they can't maintain a break hand. Because although most of the time it does lock, every once and a while it doesn't. I'm sure there are plenty of people who've been caught by their backup know when using a Gri-Gri to solo.

Then you go on to start using the term properly, which I'm pretty sure Petzl specifically puts rope soloing in the NO category for uses. Proper use includes keeping your damn hand on the brake strand. So yeah, it will be hard to find a failure when people keep their hands on the brake and use the equipment as it's intended.

I'm going to feed the troll because I have a broken ankle and nothing else to do right now.

YARP has 4 MP "points" all due to comments on others photo's. 3 out of 4 are criticizing the techniques displayed in those photos. I thus conclude YARP is an account devoted simply to troll's. Right now this guy is getting a lot of satisfaction out of the rise he is getting from the community here.

YARP, if I am wrong, I apologize in advance. But a bit of advice. If you want to be taken more seriously, add some constructive comments to the site, rather than having all your post be inflammatory.

And I am perfectly aware of the irony of being inflammatory to tell someone not to be inflammatory, so don't even bother pointing that out.

Yarp might be a man of his word, Maybe he has left this thread!

JPVallone wrote:Yarp might be a man of his word

Doubtful, I don't think he'll go away that easily. Too bad....

JPVallone wrote:Yarp might be a man of his word, Maybe he has left this thread!

No such luck JP. Sorry. That link you posted was full of good advice but not one shred of real information about an accident in there. All those scenarios were inventions of the author. However true to life he claims they may be they are not actual events.

I'm still waiting for that documented Gri Gri failure so that I can be done with this website for good.

...and jmeizis, you didn't bother reading my previous posts did you? Might want to read the whole thread next time before opening yer yapper.

Yarp wrote: No such luck JP. Sorry. That link you posted was full of good advice but not one shred of real information about an accident in there. All those scenarios were inventions of the author. However true to life he claims they may be they are not actual events. I'm still waiting for that documented Gri Gri failure so that I can be done with this website for good.

Now it has to be fatal, personally witnessed, and "documented."

Doesn't look like Yarp is going to be going away anytime soon.

Jay

Jay Tanzman wrote: Now it has to be "documented." Jay

Lets see...how's about we look at what I posted the first time...

me wrote:Come on. Just come up with ONE. Heard from a friend of a friend stories don't count. I want to see verification of death because a Gri Gri failed.

...yep, that's what I thought I wrote.

Still waiting.

Edited to add: Sorry Jay, I can't seem to keep up with your edits. I didn't say anything about personally witnessed and whether or not someone died is irrelevant to showing me a Gri Gri that failed to catch a falling climber while it was being used as intended.

You're a master at putting words in other people's mouths eh?

Yarp wrote: I'm still waiting for that documented Gri Gri failure so that I can be done with this website for good.

Why wait, just leave if you don't want to be here, Your contributions are worthless for the most part. You have not been an MP'er too long (January) and reading through your other posts, you really don't know what your talking about and your arguments in this thread have no credibility.

The thread about can you use half ropes as twins has some of Yarp's worthless knowledge in it as well. Yarp doesn't even know the limitations of the two techniques or should I say acceptable applications. Yet you contribute a bunch of sH!t about sh!t you know nothing about!

Here is what Yarp had to write about half ropes, And they are Half ropes by the way Yarp, not doubles.

"I've only climbed on doubles a couple of times so I am by no means an expert but I've read in about a billion different places that doubles should not be used as twins exactly because of the increase in the impact force and the consequences this can have on your pro. Not trying to argue with you here Jay because it would be awesome in my opinion if someone has done some actual testing using doubles as twins, but the usual "I know lots of people doing it this way" doesn't cut it in my book. Where did you get this information as I would very much like to investigate it myself."

So Yarp, You have read in Billions of places, (that's a bunch of reading by the way) that you can't use "Doubles" (1/2 Half ropes) as twins? Show me one place where you have read this and I will stay on Mountain Project for life, LOL! Shouldn't be to hard to find because you read it in Billions of places.

2nd It doesn't cut it in your book? Can we see your book since you are obviously the fore most authority on everything it seems.

Yarp my wage is $350 dollars a day and I would be more then happy to take you out and show you how to use 1/2 ropes! :-)

JPVallone wrote: Why wait, just leave if you don't want to be here, Your contributions are worthless for the most part. You have not been an MP'er too long (January) and reading through your other posts, you really don't know what your talking about and your arguments in this thread have no credibility. The thread about can you use half ropes as twins has some of Yarp's worthless knowledge in it as well. Yarp doesn't even know the limitations of the two techniques or should I say acceptable applications. Yet you contribute a bunch of sH!t about sh!t you know nothing about! Here is what Yarp had to write about half ropes, And they are Half ropes by the way Yarp, not doubles. "I've only climbed on doubles a couple of times so I am by no means an expert but I've read in about a billion different places that doubles should not be used as twins exactly because of the increase in the impact force and the consequences this can have on your pro. Not trying to argue with you here Jay because it would be awesome in my opinion if someone has done some actual testing using doubles as twins, but the usual "I know lots of people doing it this way" doesn't cut it in my book. Where did you get this information as I would very much like to investigate it myself." So Yarp, You have read in Billions of places, (that's a bunch of reading by the way) that you can't use "Doubles" (1/2 Half ropes) as twins? Show me one place where you have read this and I will stay on Mountain Project for life, LOL! Shouldn't be to hard to find because you read it in Billions of places. 2nd It doesn't cut it in your book? Can we see your book since you are obviously the fore most authority on everything it seems. Yarp my wage is $350 dollars a day and I would be more then happy to take you out and show you how to use 1/2 ropes! :-)

...lol...

Feel better?

Yarp wrote: Lets see...how's about we look at what I posted the first time... ...yep, that's what I thought I wrote. Still waiting. Edited to add: Sorry Jay, I can't seem to keep up with your edits. I didn't say anything about personally witnessed and whether or not someone died is irrelevant to showing me a Gri Gri that failed to catch a falling climber while it was being used as intended. You're a master at putting words in other people's mouths eh?

Yarp wrote:Heard from a friend of a friend stories don't count. I want to see verification of death because a Gri Gri failed.

Ty Harlacker wrote: But sport loops do soften the catch considerably. It lessens the fall-factor. More rope=more stretch

Sport loops? Are you kidding, or is this a real thing?
More rope means more stretch, but if it is an unnecessary extra loop of slack (as I'm picturing when you say "sport loops", maybe I'm wrong) then it also means a longer fall.

Alright, correct me if I'm wrong on either the concepts or the math here, but - let's say your leader has 20 feet of rope out and takes a 5 foot fall. That's a fall factor of 1:4 or 0.25. Now, say the same situation occurred but you had 5 extra feet of slack in the system - now your leader is falling 10 feet on 25 feet of rope, for a fall factor of 2:5 or 0.4. I chose small, round numbers for ease of math, but I'm pretty sure that no matter what numbers you pick, adding slack will increase the fall factor.

Em Cos wrote: Sport loops? Are you kidding, or is this a real thing? More rope means more stretch, but if it is an unnecessary extra loop of slack (as I'm picturing when you say "sport loops", maybe I'm wrong) then it also means a longer fall. Alright, correct me if I'm wrong on either the concepts or the math here, but - let's say your leader has 20 feet of rope out and takes a 5 foot fall. That's a fall factor of 1:4 or 0.25. Now, say the same situation occurred but you had 5 extra feet of slack in the system - now your leader is falling 10 feet on 25 feet of rope, for a fall factor of 2:5 or 0.4. I chose small, round numbers for ease of math, but I'm pretty sure that no matter what numbers you pick, adding slack will increase the fall factor.

Your math is right. Ty's, not so much.

No matter what the initial fall factor, adding slack moves the fall factor closer to 1. Thus if the initial fall factor is less than 1, adding slack increases the fall factor; if the initial fall factor is greater than 1, adding slack reduces it (in this case, more of a theoretical concern, than a practical one).

Jay

If that chick has time to rolla doob, she is obviously bored with her partner and needs to find someone who can actually climb.