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are you a climbing safety officer?

MattB · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 55

I was thinking a sudden 'rain shower' as well, to send them safely away, but these bozos would probably have a car battery somehow girth hitched into the anchor to make it even more whackily textbook what-not-to-do.

but really, the binerz on the edge is.the scariest part. And the 2-biner chain was soooo almost right...

Canon · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2011 · Points: 0

I think the problem is that, with any skill, there are a lot of people who are very knowledgeable, but being able to effectively pass that knowledge on to others requires an entirely different set of skills.

When I was first getting started, I buddied up with a friend who was very good at visualizing anchor systems, knots, etc. in his head. I am not one of those people. I have to learn by going hands-on, being coached through each step, getting it wrong four times in a row, etc.

The problem with my friend was that, whenever I would ask to try to build an anchor or what-have-you under his supervision, he would quickly become impatient with my fumbling, take everything out of my hands, and do it for me. "There. That's how you do it. Lets climb." As a result, I never learned anything.

I responded by never climbing unless I could go with someone who knew a lot more than me, and who could do all the technical stuff for me. Surprise surprise, the first few times I found myself out as the leader of a group of people who wanted to try climbing, my anchors were not ideal. Every anchor suffered from some sort of problem ranging from non-lockers, gates not reversed and opposed, no limiter knots, not equalized, etc. I'll never forget the unsolicited help I got from a pair of schoolteachers who were TRing the route next to me, each of whom spent a good 30 minutes tactfully talking me through anchor building, watching me do it, making recommendations, and so on. It was fantastic! However, if those teachers had just set the anchor for me, or worse, if it had been some Know-Nothing-Know-It-All who acted his dick swung like a #6 Camalot, I'd still be building crappy anchors to this day.

Austin Baird · · SLC, Utah · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 95

If you were standing on a street corner behind someone who absentmindedly started to step out in front of a car, I imagine that everyone here would do their best to pull him back onto the curb. I doubt that anyone would watch it happen and say "jackass had it coming. Stupid effing n00b walker should watch himself. One less idiot for the gene pool." That being said, why are so many of you so cavalier with other people's lives when it comes to climbing? Is this just customary internet anonymous bullshit? Are you really telling me that you won't spend 5 minutes out of your day to try and offer some potentially life-saving advice to someone who obviously wasn't blessed with the same lessons\mentors that you had? So they don't appreciate the advice - who gives a rat's ass? Come back and spray about it on this thread. It's easy to bandy about terms like "darwinism" online, but could you tell some mother\wife\brother "sorry...I saw that your son\daughter\husband didn't make his anchor redundant - but he was a big boy and should have learned his shit before trying to climb. I know an awesome funeral parlor though."?

MattB · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 55

But really, you gotta firmly but politely inform them ther setup.is dangerous and far from.ideal... And you'd be willing to help them set it straight... Then it's up fo them

And bubbles, it iz a Great skill to be able to teach things to others, and very rare and difficult to find. I hate that blather 'bout those who can do, and those who can't teach. Glad someone helped you with the ropes!

sfotex · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 225

Good God! Those are some manky ass bolts. I can't believe anyone would hang their ass off them!

Adam Stackhouse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 13,970
Austin Baird wrote:If you were standing on a street corner behind someone who absentmindedly started to step out in front of a car, I imagine that everyone here would do their best to pull him back onto the curb. I doubt that anyone would watch it happen and say "jackass had it coming. Stupid effing n00b walker should watch himself. One less idiot for the gene pool." That being said, why are so many of you so cavalier with other people's lives when it comes to climbing? Is this just customary internet anonymous bullshit? Are you really telling me that you won't spend 5 minutes out of your day to try and offer some potentially life-saving advice to someone who obviously wasn't blessed with the same lessons\mentors that you had? So they don't appreciate the advice - who gives a rat's ass? Come back and spray about it on this thread. It's easy to bandy about terms like "darwinism" online, but could you tell some mother\wife\brother "sorry...I saw that your son\daughter\husband didn't make his anchor redundant - but he was a big boy and should have learned his shit before trying to climb. I know an awesome funeral parlor though."?
Nicely put
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
Austin Baird wrote:If you were standing on a street corner behind someone who absentmindedly started to step out in front of a car, I imagine that everyone here would do their best to pull him back onto the curb. I doubt that anyone would watch it happen and say "jackass had it coming. Stupid effing n00b walker should watch himself. One less idiot for the gene pool." That being said, why are so many of you so cavalier with other people's lives when it comes to climbing? Is this just customary internet anonymous bullshit? Are you really telling me that you won't spend 5 minutes out of your day to try and offer some potentially life-saving advice to someone who obviously wasn't blessed with the same lessons\mentors that you had? So they don't appreciate the advice - who gives a rat's ass? Come back and spray about it on this thread. It's easy to bandy about terms like "darwinism" online, but could you tell some mother\wife\brother "sorry...I saw that your son\daughter\husband didn't make his anchor redundant - but he was a big boy and should have learned his shit before trying to climb. I know an awesome funeral parlor though."?
I think that the above statement is worth repeating. I waffle on this topic every time I see someone doing something stupid, but I think next time I will remember Austin's point of view.

Not long ago I actually did have a lady, standing right next to me, try to walk out in front of a car that was traveling at about 40 mph. I put my arm out in front of her and held her back, probably saving her life. Someone behind me even clapped.

I didn't think about what I was doing, it was just an instinctive move to keep another person from being harmed. I didn't think "oh she's just some dumb tourist" or "if you're going to walk around in London you have to pay attention." If I had seen her get run-over by this car I would have felt horrible that I didn't do anything to stop it.

I imagine if I walked past an anchor like the one in the picture and didn't say anything, I'd feel even more horrible if something happened to the climbers who were using the set up. Not only did I notice (like I did with the lady) that something bad was about to happen, but choosing not to say anything is making a conscious decision not to save a person's life.

How you go about saying something is a whole different conversation, but at the very least you should explain to the people that by setting up the anchor in that fashion, they are effectively increasing the chances of killing themselves or one of their friends. Climbing is all about decreasing risk. They need to hear it said, out loud, in front of everyone, that they are being unsafe, and if they continue to do so, one of them is probably going to die. DIE. I think it is important to use that word.

After that, you have to make your own decision about how to instruct them. If you are one of those people that is gifted in explaining things and sharing knowledge, then you would do well to take the time to help them understand why their setup is so dangerous. If you are not one of those gifted people, then you should try to find someone who is or at least recommend that they get some proper instruction ASAP.

If they choose to ignore you and you end up carrying them out or reading about their death down the road then you will still sleep well at night knowing that you did everything you could. If they start to act like an ass, just politely apologize and ask that at least they take the time to process what you've said before continuing to put lives in danger.

Most people will listen and thank you when you offer advice. Some will talk shit, but still listen and probably go home and try to learn a bit more about safety. And a small percentage will not listen and just go on being stupid. Some of them will get lucky and the others will die.
Eric D · · Gnarnia · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 235
MattB wrote:politely inform them ther setup.is dangerous
I think that it's not dangerous. It is not going to fail.
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

There are lots of poor anchors going on out there but rarely do I see something I think is actually going to fail.

In either case I think finding the culprit and starting the conversation with "Hey, can I show you some tricks to make that anchor better?" is a good place to start. Usually, people are just ignorant of how to do it properly and know that so they ad-lib and it takes them forever to set an anchor and therefore they are happy to hear some tips.

Bang Nhan · · Charlottesville, VA · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 35

Should every climber own a copy of "Freedom to the Hill"?

bwalt822 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 0

I can easily see that anchor failing.

Climber takes enough of a fall to bend that right biner over the edge. carabiner which causes its gate to pop open. They then flip their rope a few times to get it unstuck or moved which then causes that half of the cord to come out of the now open biner.

Or they flip the rope which causes the two chained non lockers to do the magic rings trick.

sfotex · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 225

I usually break the ice by asking them if they have a cigaret, then while we're smoking I brink up that there TR anchor isn't redundant enough, and that there is a small but non zero chance they could hurt themselves and they should really read the warning labels that comes on their gear when they bought it.

Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266

To me when I look at this anchor I see the intent of someone trying to backup one set of manky bolts with another set. Since they thought they were being safe I would point out to them how what they thought they were doing won't work. The desire is there so maybe they will listen.

Austin, that is a great post, before reading that I was more on the side of "leave it alone".

jon mouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 0

The people who say they dont see real danger here are very surprising. Newbies should seek knowledge from experienced climbers always! Freedom of the Hills is by far the best climbing instruction guide out there, but, even if you read it a thousand times you still dont know whats going on until someone shows you or it is put into practice. You should always learn from someone with expertise and if you dont have that person take a class. Obviously people on this thread wouldnt see the biners on the lip bending or snapping or one of the incorrectly loaded bolts blowing and shock loading the whole system with enough force to rip out those old shitty bolts. I have witnessed accidents and been part of rescues and it is way easier than you think for things to go wrong. If you come across a climber who cant even build a safe top rope anchor where it is straight forward as this was, then please stop and help. It looked to me like almost every single thing these guys did was wrong except for being in the bolts. THIS IS CARELESS AND WILL END UP HURTING OR KILLING SOMEONE. ALWAYS EQUALIZE, MAGIC SLIDING X, LOCKING CARABINERS. this is what scares me most about going out climbing in popular areas, so many people that have no business teaching their friends how to "climb" and showing them techniques that will one day hurt or kill them

Gregory D · · La Verne · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 20

So many obvious mistakes, almost like someone would have to try and make it that bad.

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180

So long as they're not trying to sell that gear for more than 50% below internet sales price I don't see a problem.

Steven N · · CO · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 80

wow, pretty crazy anchor set up there!

Now heres a question, how would you set up that anchor with ONLY the gear shown?
4 non locking biners
3 12" slings
1 24" sling
5mm cord (looks like 2 pieces? I see two fisherman knots)

bubbawayne · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 0

I could make a better anchor than that with just the cord and 2 carabiners

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

im reminded of the "experts" at the crag that try to tell ya that 2 opposed draws are not "safe" ... they insist you need a "proper" anchor at the top of a sports climb

nothing wrong with warning someone about imminent danger ... but make sure you arent one of those azzes that go off about "safety" to feel important

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
Steven N wrote:wow, pretty crazy anchor set up there! Now heres a question, how would you set up that anchor with ONLY the gear shown? 4 non locking biners 3 12" slings 1 24" sling 5mm cord (looks like 2 pieces? I see two fisherman knots)
Ya all you need is the cord and two biners... but with all 4 you could clip the bolts instead of threading them. If you're making it a rule that you have use all 4 bolts then it would take some hands on time to get it equalized properly, but at the very least they could have added a twist to one strand of the cord to create a sliding X and opposed the two biners at the masterpoint instead of doing whatever they have going on there.

If either of those biners near the bolts breaks or gets forced open (and they easily could because of how they are oriented over the edge), then the anchor will fail. And I think having just one biner would be safer than having one clipped to another. Is that what I see?

Scary.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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