Am I just too old school?

I agree basically with everything that Mr. Anderson said. The one interesting thing that I never thought about was what a previous post said. Someone mentioned that you might be stealing the full FA experience from a future climber by bolting a line.

I never thought about the possibility that someone would be upset that a sport route was cleaned, bolted, and ready to go for them. But again that speaks to why a particular person wants to develop a particular route.

As a climber who has scooped up a number of routes in Clear Creek that had been abandoned by their equippers, I find some of the criticism of this effort somewhat bewildering. The route is on a well-established wall that is already covered with sport routes so there is zero real environmental impact. The equipper saw an excellent line, one that has been speculated about by many, no doubt, including myself, and he decided to put in bolts. Judging by the number of bolts, it is not overbolted or squeezed. If it goes, and I see no reason why it shouldn't, the Front Range could have a truly classic 14+ that is in a popular and easily accessible place. The equipper also opened the project to anyone which is quite generous, considering the time, effort and expense involved in bolting the route.

The grumblings about old school/new school are about 20 or 30 years out of date. There are many examples of pathbreaking projects worldwide that were equipped by people incapable of climbing them but who recognized a good line when they saw it. Maybe we should wait for the opinion of someone who can more accurately assess the project's quality firsthand. For my part, I say a loud thank you to Jay and anyone else who takes the trouble to bolt a good-looking line, regardless of grade.

Coeus:"I for one don't think it is weird to bolt something that is too hard for you.

One thing to remember is that there are a lot more people climbing 5.14 that we would like to admit to ourselves. This "cutting edge" potential 14+ may seem unreasonable to bolt today, but will probably see more traffic in the future."

This is on point imo...

looking more globally, where 5.14 is not even hard, as all kinds of kids (and not so kids) are onsighting mid-upper 5.14, even over here...

climbingnarc.com/2011/03/5-…

certainly Ondra has benefited and has put up numerous lines which were "pre bolted"...I'm not sure he has put in his own line at these upper grades yet, but I'm sure when he does later in his career given his continued improvement, we could be seeing 9c and even 10a!

looking at the '8a' scorecards, '9a' is getting pretty easy for "the world"....how about a dozen 9a or harder routes in the last year?

8a.nu/?IncPage=http%3A//8a.…

Have never climbed abroad, but from my limited understanding, often times the bolter is given credit...imo not so much a dangerous precedent to create undoable routes (for you), but something that is positive and pushes standards forward. In terms of the argument of possible bad bolting, no biggie, if you watch guys like Sharma and Ondra, a lot of times they are skipping quite a few clips anyhoos, yeehaw! Just watch the first (and last) 15 secs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXdC-PY-nw

Peter Beal wrote:As a climber who has scooped up a number of routes in Clear Creek that had been abandoned by their equippers, I find some of the criticism of this effort somewhat bewildering. The route is on a well-established wall that is already covered with sport routes so there is zero real environmental impact. The equipper saw an excellent line, one that has been speculated about by many, no doubt, including myself, and he decided to put in bolts. Judging by the number of bolts, it is not overbolted or squeezed. If it goes, and I see no reason why it shouldn't, the Front Range could have a truly classic 14+ that is in a popular and easily accessible place. The equipper also opened the project to anyone which is quite generous, considering the time, effort and expense involved in bolting the route. The grumblings about old school/new school are about 20 or 30 years out of date. There are many examples of pathbreaking projects worldwide that were equipped by people incapable of climbing them but who recognized a good line when they saw it. Maybe we should wait for the opinion of someone who can more accurately assess the project's quality firsthand. For my part, I say a loud thank you to Jay and anyone else who takes the trouble to bolt a good-looking line, regardless of grade.

Well put, Peter.

YDPL8S wrote:I'll be the first to admit that I don't understand sport/bolt routes and anything to do with their ethics. But, I just read a submission for a new route in CCC where the person who put up the "project" readily admits that he doesn't climb anywhere near that grade (he's estimating 5.14+) If he has some friend that climbs that hard and asks him to help put it up that's one thing. But, reading the account makes it sound like he just sort of put it up on a whim. It just seems like a dangerous precedent to set. Like it could lead to people bolting a lot of blank walls and then saying "let's see if anyone can climb that?" I hope there was a little more thought put into it than it looks like from first glance.

Simple answer is yes. We are 'old school' if we: 1) started climbing on rock and not in a gym. 2) did trad long before sport 3) are over the age of 30something and don't lead 5.12 all day long. 'Nuff said. Welcome to the club.

Is it really necessary to bolt something to "inspire" people? The line still exists without the bolts.

Nick Rhoads wrote:Is it really necessary to bolt something to "inspire" people? The line still exists without the bolts.

+1 The rock always wins for natural inspiration.

What has the potential for being lost here is that those who are capable of high-end projects losing the opportunity to personally equip, unlock and realize the potential of such lines. There is a HUGE difference between merely climbing a route and being its creator. If all you do is equip it, you have achieved nothing. And if all you do is climb it, then you just have a tick on your resume. But if you create and send, then its a bit of a personal testament.

Still, this whole thing rates really low on my give-a-shit meter. I think consensus is we don't really care much one way or the other, just don't want to see this become a popular trend.

Mike Lane wrote:What has the potential for being lost here is that those who are capable of high-end projects losing the opportunity to personally equip, unlock and realize the potential of such lines. There is a HUGE difference between merely climbing a route and being its creator. If all you do is equip it, you have achieved nothing. And if all you do is climb it, then you just have a tick on your resume.

I disagree, you look at like Ubermensch at the Pinnacles-a sick line, lets be real, Sharma wasn't going to equip it @ 16 but he did send...---of course now he's putting up his own rigs at times, which may be "prouder" in some eyes I guess.

Closer to youse guys just look at all the Rifle rigs that were abandoned then picked up by guys like George Squibb---Gropius is a perfect example...JB--7 PM Show...even "reworks" like Don Welsh's HUGE...all fantastic lines in my eyes, none of which I have sent.

I think that when you get to "so high end" sometimes you bite off more than you can chew...I think that the notion that creating a route and merely climbing it is a huge difference is a personal one, certainly not one that holds water where standards are much higher (Lleida, in general Europe)...many of the world's hardest routes were sent by someone other than the creator...the most recent example being Chaxi Raxi! Who's criticizing Ondra? I remember criticism of Sharma a while ago for this (not bolting his own routes), fwiw...speaking of, how about all the red tag critics on FRFM? What a Catch-22... Seems to me the "community" is really moving towards "open projects" rather than "my parochial unit"...maybe this is new schooL?

Locally CO guys Peter and Mono show there is usually a beneficiary to someone's "hard" vision...

James Arnold wrote:---of course now he's putting up his own rigs at times, which may be "prouder" in some eyes I guess. Closer to youse guys just look at all the Rifle rigs that were abandoned then picked up by guys like George Squibb---

To clarify- it ain't about how proud the send is, or community perception. I am talking about the personal experience one has when you actually create and send it. And you are still referring to other routes that were at least attempted by the installers before being abandoned. Just b/c the young-uns don't have the knowledge to equip means that things are evolving in a positive manner.
To wit: who equipped Flex Luther?

Mike Lane wrote: To clarify- it ain't about how proud the send is, or community perception. I am talking about the personal experience one has when you actually create and send it. And you are still referring to other routes that were at least attempted by the installers before being abandoned. Just b/c the young-uns don't have the knowledge to equip means that things are evolving in a positive manner. To wit: who equipped Flex Luther?

Touche; Jmo, but to me sending dawn/mescalito/ret free is a much "prouder" effort than an FA of flex or anything of the sort. U wonder what TC thinks (if at all) about such a matter.

I couldn't imagine it going free ever when we did it...

When we did other elcap routes like salathe, nose, even N.A. and Zodiac those were all things I thought "this might/could/should go free"-and did. But the whole dawn wall seemed "realm of teh absurd" in terms of free climbing. But I guess I just saw it through old school eyes...

I don't think Burton/Sutton/Porter/Harding/et al involved on the FA's of the routes that "may go free" could have ever envisioned the "new school"...I support Jay's decision, heck 5.14 really isn't hard comparatively-some of the locals like JStarr should dispatch it post haste if motivated...

Mike Lane wrote: I am talking about the personal experience one has when you actually create and send it.

Seems Sharma is probably more stoked on FRFM than a lot (all?) of other things he's done;

prana.com/blog/2011/04/20/c…

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It seems the lad is getting at it!

At this point, it might be that the idea of "freeing" old aid climbs is obsolete, especially since in many cases, to take the instance of El Cap, the free line can vary substantially from the aid line. Although historical amnesia is not unique to the newest generation, the different contemporary approaches to the sport could make a consignment of aid climbing and its past achievements to oblivion more and more likely.