How hard do people really climb?

If you are counting everyone with a rope and harness as a climber then sure, the percentages would be small. But I don't think it's really fair to do it that way. I'd say that up to half of the people in the world that own a rope and harness aren't really climbers.

5.10: There is a big difference between red-pointing a mid 5.10 sport climb and on-sighting a hard 5.10R. To say that you are a 5.10 climber I think you need to be able to do both.

Most people that are able to make it up the approach trail could probably red-point a 5.10 sport climb. In fact I would be willing to bet that I could coach anyone who is reasonably fit for a while and get them to red-point a 5.10 sport climb. But there are a lot of people who won't climb hard 5.10 above gear. Not that they can't... but they won't.

5.12: Red-pointing a 5.12a/b is hardly the same as flashing/on-sighting a climb of that grade. Most climbers who actually climb a reasonable amount could red-point a 5.12 sport climb if they really wanted to. Being able to on-sight one is certainly attainable for most climbers as well, but it will take a lot more time and work to build to that level and most climbers won't make it. They can/could, but they won't go about it properly or try hard enough for long enough.

10% is a bit low though. I think it's more like 20%. But then our definitions of climbers is probably different. If you count everyone with a rope and harness it probably drops below 10%.

JPVallone wrote: and as far as claiming a grade and your ability to say you are a certain level climber. Werner Braun once told me while I was living in the Valley that if you think you are a 5.9 climber then you should of led and sent 50 different pitches at the grade in the Valley. Slab, Sport, Finger Crack, Offwidth, Chimney, Face, Hand Crack, roofs, etc and every style you could find in the area. After that then you can claim the grade and declare yourself a 5.9 climber, I liked his reasoning, because are you a 5.9 climber if you hike face and sport routes at the grade but get your ass handed to you on an offwidth at the same grade?

I've always found this notion a bit ridiculous. It's kind of like telling someone witha PhD in physics that, "until you have papers published in an Astrophysics journal, an AMO journal, a theoretical high energy journal, etc etc, you're not really a physicist."

JPVallone wrote: ...and as far as claiming a grade and your ability to say you are a certain level climber. Werner Braun once told me while I was living in the Valley that if you think you are a 5.9 climber then you should of led and sent 50 different pitches at the grade in the Valley. Slab, Sport, Finger Crack, Offwidth, Chimney, Face, Hand Crack, roofs, etc and every style you could find in the area. After that then you can claim the grade and declare yourself a 5.9 climber, I liked his reasoning, because are you a 5.9 climber if you hike face and sport routes at the grade but get your ass handed to you on an offwidth at the same grade?

+1. I have on-sighted mid 11 trad and harder sport but still have a hard time calling myself a 5.10 climber because if it's a crack that's wider than fists it could take me all day to lead a pitch no matter what the grade. The first pitch of the N. Face of Castleton AND the first pitch of Fine Jade beat me to hell. Both 5.10.

And as far as comparing climbing 5.12 to golf and skiing? Come on. I've done a lot of both. Yes I did play golf growing up... we had no mountains.

Being a scratch golfer is so much harder than being a 5.12 climber that I can't even explain it. The percentage of golfers who consistently shoot in the low 70's is MUCH lower than the percentage of climbers who can on-sight 5.12-.

And skiing in bounds is easier than all of the above. I could float "double blacks" in Colorado when I was 10... and I grew up at the beach! The hardest part is not getting slammed into by an out of control cowboy from Texas, dressed in blue jeans and a leather jacket.

Now being in the back country greatly affects the skiing... and the climbing for that matter. And I guess the same could be said about trying to play golf in Scotland. But for anyone who has played any golf... isn't it one of the hardest things you've ever tried to be good at?

If the question is how does one become a consistent 12- onsighter, my suggestion is push yourself into the 13- range. About the time I was consistently redpointing 13- in 2-3 days of really "trying" I noticed I was also consistently onsighting 12-. I don't think you can be a serial 5.12- climber and expect to become strong enough to consistently onsight at that level. I think you have to have that extra reserve you can access when the route unexpectedly throws a punch. (Queue Rocky music now)

Brian Abram wrote: I've always considered my climbing level to be the grade I expect to normally on sight. I feel like, for me, working a route and memorizing sequences just brings it down to my level. I'm not somehow stronger once I have a route memorized. For me, the .12 eventually becomes as hard as what I'm normally capable of climbing without falling: 5.11. I know that's not how most look at it, ...

Totally agree w/Brian. Big difference between "I climb 12a" vs "I have climbed a 12a".... HUGE, huge difference in my opinion. The first to me says that's their consistent onsight ability, the later says they squeaked one out once after working it repeatedly... and the difference between those two ability levels is big. So for someone to be a 5.10 climber in my book means they can onsight 10c and lower, period - hell there are likely several 10d and 11- climbs they can onsight if the style of climbing is perfect for them, but they can't onsight all of them, so they are still a 10 climber.... and I actually don't believe achieving that level of skill is as straight forward as everyone else believes it is, I guess. Again, for me it's all about onsight ability.

Now bump that argument up to 12's and no way are 10% of all climbers routinely onsighting 12-. Sure there are a lot of folks who do, but in terms of overall statistical distribution, I'd say that curve is drastically skewed to the low end with the upper tail being mighty, mighty thin.

Ty Harlacker wrote: Maybe this will help answer your question:, this is from The Freedom of the Hills * 5.0-5.7 Easy for experienced climbers; where novices begin. * 5.8-5.9 Where most weekend climbers become comfortable;employs the specific skills of rock-climbing, such as jamming, liebacks, and mantles. * 5.10 A dedicated weekend climber may attain this level. * 5.11-5.15 The realm of true experts, demands much training and natural ability and, often, repeated working of the route.

Here's the chart from the 4th Edition of Freedom of the Hills:

5.0 to 5.4
There are two hand- and two footholds for every move; the holds become progressively smaller as the number increases.

5.5 to 5.6
The two hand- and two footholds are there, obvious to the experienced, but not necessarily so to the beginner.

5.7
The move is missing one hand- or foothold.

5.8
The move is missing two holds of the four, or missing only one but is very strenuous.

5.9
This move has only one reasonable hold which may be for either a foot or a hand.

5.10
No hand- or footholds. The choices are to pretend a hold is there, pray a lot, or go home.

5.11
After thorough inspection you conclude this move is obviously impossible; however, occasionally someone actually accomplishes it. Since there is nothing for a handhold, grab it with both hands.

5.12
The surface is as smooth as glass and vertical. No one has really ever made this move, although a very few claim they have.

5.13
This is identical to 5.12 except it is located under overhanging rock.

Personally, I relate really well to this perspective!

swm

"5.12" covers such a broad array that saying "most people can send 5.12" is almost meaningless...5.12 sport with a one move dyno crux and a bolt at your face, vs. 5.12 slab looking at a 30' cheesegrater if you blow it vs. 5.12 sustained fingercrack vs. 5.12 dead vertical edging route where you're hanging out fishing in micro wires for pro, vs. 5.12 circus tricks OW roof.

Then there's grade inflation that's rampant in most climbing areas outside the few known as being "sandbagged" which are actually accurate (Valley, Vedauwoo, Index, Eldo, etc).

10% regularly send 5.12? Maybe in Jacks Canyon, Indian Creek, or Rifle. Not in any place with real grades IME. Probably <5%. Move it up to 13 on gear and we're probably down to ~2%.

Will S wrote:"5.12" covers such a broad array that saying "most people can send 5.12" is almost meaningless...5.12 sport with a one move dyno crux and a bolt at your face, vs. 5.12 slab looking at a 30' cheesegrater if you blow it vs. 5.12 sustained fingercrack vs. 5.12 dead vertical edging route where you're hanging out fishing in micro wires for pro, vs. 5.12 circus tricks OW roof. Then there's grade inflation that's rampant in most climbing areas outside the few known as being "sandbagged" which are actually accurate (Valley, Vedauwoo, Index, Eldo, etc). 10% regularly send 5.12? Maybe in Jacks Canyon, Indian Creek, or Rifle. Not in any place with real grades IME. Probably <5%. Move it up to 13 on gear and we're probably down to ~2%.

Very well said.

I've climbed 5.12 sport and 5.11 trad everywhere that I've been. EXCEPT but my home state of NC. Only sent one 5.11a trad route and no 5.12's. NC is not sandbagged, but accurate.

I on-sighted 5.11 on my first desert tower, on exactly my 3rd day of crack climbing and only the 4th crack pitch that I had ever led. Grades out there aren't quite the same as they are back in NC. Or maybe I just have the right sized fingers?

FWIW, I thought The Yellow Spur in Eldo was soft... big time. It was the only route I did in Eldo. All depends on your style I guess. Which really makes this whole conversation a bit silly. But then all conversations about grades are silly.

This thread seems to be moving to 'how hard to people say they climb?' Keeping with that, here is something I was told a while back that often seems to be true.

"If a guy tells you he climbs 5.10, he probably climbs 5.9; if a woman tells you she climbs 5.10, she probably leads 5.11-."

I absolutely believe this, especially if they are talking about TR....granted some ppl could never do this for lack of head space clipping bolts, but PHYSICALLY, yes i think anyone could climb a 5.10 given that they are "climbers".....in fact there is not a single climber that i know that owns a rope, shoes, and a harness that cannot climb a 5.10 sport route

As far as the 5.12 thing goes, i Agree also with that. i have witnessed first hand as well as scene many stories of "weekend climbers" who have only been climbing for a few months being able to send 5.12 (these are also the physically gifted) but i truly believe anyone who climbs avidly and has a passion for climbing can climb a 5.12 route if thats all the definition is implying

now if we are talking a consistant 5.10 or 5.12 sport climber, then that may be a different story....in the end they are all grades and should not be taken seriously as im sure there is a route out there for everyone and it is not that uncommon for a 5.12 climber to fall on a tricky 5.10 route every once in a while

So what am I doing wrong? I've got mountains of gear, climb occasionally, and obsess about climbing enough that I visit this site every day, but I can barely toprope a 5.8 without weighing the rope. I know a huge part of my problem is mental, but alot of the harder climbs (5.8) I either just can't figure out what to do, or even if I know what the move is, I just don't know how to do the move successfully without falling off. WTH is wrong with me? I'm in decent shape, no physical problems at all... I obviously need more practice and some teaching in order to progress, so I don't think I fall into the category of "I can climb 5.10 without trying."

Wyatt H wrote:So what am I doing wrong? I've got mountains of gear, climb occasionally, and obsess about climbing enough that I visit this site every day, but I can barely toprope a 5.8 without weighing the rope. I know a huge part of my problem is mental, but alot of the harder climbs (5.8) I either just can't figure out what to do, or even if I know what the move is, I just don't know how to do the move successfully without falling off. WTH is wrong with me? I'm in decent shape, no physical problems at all... I obviously need more practice and some teaching in order to progress, so I don't think I fall into the category of "I can climb 5.10 without trying."

Hang out with people who climb 11's and 12's

That's funny, Mike. I like the quote :)

"If a guy tells you he climbs 5.10, he probably climbs 5.9; if a woman tells you she climbs 5.10, she probably leads 5.11-."

Saying one has climbed 5.12 is very different from BEING a 5.12 climber.

The test I use is if I can on-sight 95%() of the climbs for a given grade, then I climb that grade. I don't keep track, but you know what I mean.

I've on-sighted a few 5.12s, but I consider myself a 5.10 climber....and I still get bouted by a few 5.10s here and there.

If you want to be a 5.12 climber you need to be red-pointing a number grade harder

Jim Donini said somewhere that there are very few "true" 5.10 climbers, Iikely true....but if thats the case there are probably vanishingly small amounts "true" 5.12 climbers.

This is of course all dealing with trad... Sport climbing is a different beast. I don't know many sport climbers who are exclusively on-sighters....so if you wanna call yourself a 5.13 sport climber, if thats what you redpoint....be my guest.

While not related to this post, perhaps this comment is worth mentioning..

I've seen more than one 5.11 climber(who posted their climbing ability as 5.11+ on their profile) retreat from a 5.8 handcrack at Lumpy. I've also been handed the sharp end at Eldo(more than once) because a '5.12' climber buddy couldn't lead an easy runout traverse due to insecure or non-existant pro. That said, I'm by no means what-so-ever a 5.12 climber nor will I ever be.

My point is this...many people post their climbing ability at a higher grade, yet, in a situation where the moves get tricky and the pro fades away, these same people hand the sharp end to someone else and/or back off entirely. Which begs the question..If someone says they climb at a certain grade, say 5.12. And, that person backs away from a runout 5.8 traverse, is their climbing ability really 5.12??

Ryan Williams wrote: Very well said. I've climbed 5.12 sport and 5.11 trad everywhere that I've been. EXCEPT but my home state of NC. Only sent one 5.11a trad route and no 5.12's. NC is not sandbagged, but accurate. I on-sighted 5.11 on my first desert tower, on exactly my 3rd day of crack climbing and only the 4th crack pitch that I had ever led. Grades out there aren't quite the same as they are back in NC. Or maybe I just have the right sized fingers? FWIW, I thought The Yellow Spur in Eldo was soft... big time. It was the only route I did in Eldo. All depends on your style I guess. Which really makes this whole conversation a bit silly. But then all conversations about grades are silly.

NC grades.. Oh boy. That's a hell of a game there. I've got my small share of 5.11 gear routes but I don't claim to climb 5.11 on gear in NC. West VA, yea I'm happy there.

Oh, and you must not have done the old aid line straight up the last pitch of the Yellow Spur. Not soft.

how hard do people really climb?

harder than you think.

Most of the gym/sport climbers I've talked with can tell me exactly what grade they can climb. You usually can't get them to shut up about it.

The really good trad climbers that I know rarely talk about grades. Usually referring instead to hand/ finger size and angle. Not to say that they don't ever talk about grades but it would seem to me that usually, the better climber is the one not going on and on about the grade of their project.

Willa wrote:Yeah man. Sport climbers and boulderers are lame. Trad climbers are just so much more pure, know what i mean? They really understand what it means to be a man. Until you've experienced super gnarly 25ft run-out. you're really just an infant, not even a real climber.

Your words Willa, not mine. Just making an anecdotal observation. No reason to be a douche about it but thanks for commenting.

My favorite is a kid that started bouldering v2/3 and now considers himself a 5:10 trad leader despite never leading harder than a 5.7 on my rack an bailing on a multiple pitch 5.8 in vedauwoo