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How hard do people really climb?

Original Post
Off Route · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 240

OK, so I have the flu-I know who gets the flu in June-and am bored out of my mind. I have heard two comments over the years that I have always wondered about. The first is that anyone can climb 5.10. The second is that any climber who tries can climb 5.12. My actual question is what percentage of the climbing population can onsight 12-?
I actually disagree with both and am guessing that maybe 10% of the climbing community can onsight 12-. If we need definitions, a climber is anyone who owns a rope, shoes, and a harness. Please feel free to flame, troll, exaggerate, or even make up your responses because I am essentially asking for free entertainment until my fever breaks or netflixs posts more movies on their instant site. So what are the real stats? How hard do people really climb?

Chris Plesko · · Westminster, CO · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 485

Tries doesn't mean owns gear. Lots of people do that and are lucky to climb once a month. Just like people say they ice climb meaning they go to Ouray for the Fest every year. That's cool but not really trying to be an ice climber. I'd say tries means climbs at least 3x a week and does things towards improving. That's totally doable even with a job, family, etc IMO.

I'd believe the 12- thing considering roughly a year in the gym and I was onsighting a number of gym 12- routes, didn't matter really what gym. I just haven't been on nearly enough outdoor routes above 5.11 to give a fair comparison so I'll leave that to others. I have redpointed 11a sport and trad in just a couple tries but I need to get on more hard outdoor routes to really compare.

Keith H. North · · Englewood, CO · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 90

I think that if anyone set themselves to it, yes they could send a 5.10 be it on sport trad ect... who cares IT IS A GRADE! And as for 5.12 again it's a grade.... but yeah I think that most people who try could climb that hard, lots of people have 5.12 in their heads as this huge grade. I mean thats about the lowest grade Sharma will warm up on, I have heard of Emily Harrington climbing The Beast as a warm up (13a, rifle). Who cares about 5.12? :) just go climb, also I want to say that either Urban Climber or Climbing Mag did something on this 3-4 issues back with stats on how hard people climb.

Sorry about babble

Steve Bond · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 45

I can climb 12a but not .10 - its weird.

Keith H. North · · Englewood, CO · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 90
Steve Bond wrote:I can climb 12a but not .10 - its weird.
Not really I have climbed 13a but fallen on 5.10s
Brian Snider · · NorCal · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 732

I can climb 5.10d but only trad lead 5.5. I think its a mental thing.

Gregory D · · La Verne · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 20

My first day climbing I had no chance making it up a 5.10, "that 5.9" at the gym denied me for several weeks. Now, 5.10s are nothing to write home about. As far as 5.12 goes, if I lost 20 lbs, climbed more than once a week, and had those ultra light draws...then again, that might constitute "trying" which I am totally against.

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

Being able to flash/redpoint 5.12 is a mastery of the sport, similar to fall-line skiing down double blacks and being a consistent par golfer. In those sports, as ours, I think its about 10% of the participants; and there is no substitute for spending a lot time at it to get there.

nick frazee · · bozeman, MT · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 115
Mike Lane wrote:Being able to flash/redpoint 5.12 is a mastery of the sport, similar to fall-line skiing down double blacks and being a consistent par golfer. In those sports, as ours, I think its about 10% of the participants; and there is no substitute for spending a lot time at it to get there.
being a consistent par golfer is way harder than climbing 5.12
Evan Sanders · · Westminster, CO · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 140
nick frazee wrote: being a consistent par golfer is way harder than climbing 5.12
Apples to oranges my friend.
rob bauer · · Golden, CO · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 3,929

Grades are a guide. For ME, I use them mostly to keep out of trouble. Yes, they help me filter what I'm choosing to climb, but it's not the easier climbs I'm worried about; just the ones that are gonna kill my time, cost me a 'biner or impede those who are filtering for what gives them their jollies.

To answer the OP: 5.10 is my comfort zone. Sometimes I climb a 5.11, but I certainly wouldn't call myself a 5.11 climber. (I'm not much for hanging...Heck, I even fell up a 5.12, ONCE.)

I think the 10% regularly sending very high grades sounds about right.

Arnold Braker · · golden, co · Joined Jun 2007 · Points: 280
Eric Whitbeck wrote:... The second is that any climber who tries can climb 5.12. My actual question is what percentage of the climbing population can onsight 12-? I actually disagree with both and am guessing that maybe 10% of the climbing community can onsight 12-.
If the claim is that anybody who tries can climb 5.12, what does that have to do with onsighting?

Regardless, maybe only 10% of climbers are actually trying?
Ty Harlacker · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 231

I fall more on harder routes. It's not uncommon for me to fall 5-30 times when working a route towards my limit. If you are "flashing" or "on-sighting" (whatever you call it) 12- then you are probably a 13 climber.
Maybe this will help answer your question:, this is from The Freedom of the Hills
* 5.0-5.7 Easy for experienced climbers; where novices begin.
* 5.8-5.9 Where most weekend climbers become comfortable;employs the specific skills of rock-climbing, such as jamming, liebacks, and mantles.
* 5.10 A dedicated weekend climber may attain this level.
* 5.11-5.15 The realm of true experts, demands much training and natural ability and, often, repeated working of the route.


So, considering I would say less than 10% climb above 5.12. Just because the term "climbing community" encompasses a lot of people!

Ty Harlacker · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 231
Arnold Braker wrote: If the claim is that anybody who tries can climb 5.12, what does that have to do with onsighting? Regardless, maybe only 10% of climbers are actually trying?

Good points!
Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090

It seems to me that most everyone should be able to climb 5.9. 5.10 for some people takes time, and for others it comes quickly. It depends on a lot of things though. Weight, age, previous climbing experience, etc all play into the equation I;d reckon.

5.12 can come for anyone, but again it take a lot of things. In my opinion if the "natural ability" isn't there, it takes a lot of drive. Drive to train, drive to climb a lot, etc. I've also noticed that people solely dedicated to climbing vs. being involved in multiple hobbies to tend to excel faster if they want. It seems like more people that are involved in multiple hobbies are happier to be at a certain level than people solely dedicated to climbing. This is obvious I know, but I think it's a good point.

In college I climbed a lot more than I can climb now. I broke the 5.12 barrier, but I personally have been sitting around the 5.11 level (gear and bolts). If I were able to climb more there is no question in my mind that I'd be climbing 12s no problem. This is only my personal experience and my observations.

My girlfriend has been climbing with me for a year or so and can make her way up 5.10 and climbs 5.9 fairly well. I have no doubt that with more time and climbing experience she could easily climb 5.11 but her job as veterinarian keeps her from getting out as much as she'd like to. Again, my observation and personal experience.

The difference between my girlfriend and I is that I dedicate all my free time to climbing and she splits it between climbing and other hobbies.

Mike · · Phoenix · Joined May 2006 · Points: 2,615

Ty that chart from FOTH is nice, but seems to be aimed more towards old-school trad routes. Today many climbers can camp out at the base of some 50' bolted & feather-bagged 5.12a for a month or a year and work it into submission, should they be so inclined.

I have on-sighted a couple easier 5.12's, and have RP a few others, but never by projecting, which I personally find boring. However more often than not I fall on .12's and certainly wouldn't consider myself a 5.12 climber. 5.11 for sure.

There are many people out there that have a blast climbing only 5.8 & under routes all the time. There are also lots of people out there silently crushing it.

JPVallone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 195
Mike Lane wrote:Being able to flash/redpoint 5.12 is a mastery of the sport, similar to fall-line skiing down double blacks and being a consistent par golfer. In those sports, as ours, I think its about 10% of the participants; and there is no substitute for spending a lot time at it to get there.
I have to disagree with the ski statement, What is a double black diamond anyway, and if you just got down the run are you an expert skier since its an expert run, I think the frozen ribbon of death in October at Colorado ski resorts, with 100's of pre season enthusiasts whizzing by out of control, is way more technical then skiing a 30cm fresh run on what a colorado resort would call a double black. You can't rate ski runs in my book. too many variables, What if its a powder run today on a blue run and you were a hero, but tomorrow that same run is frozen icy, slide for life bumps and you have to side slip it?

and as far as claiming a grade and your ability to say you are a certain level climber. Werner Braun once told me while I was living in the Valley that if you think you are a 5.9 climber then you should of led and sent 50 different pitches at the grade in the Valley. Slab, Sport, Finger Crack, Offwidth, Chimney, Face, Hand Crack, roofs, etc and every style you could find in the area. After that then you can claim the grade and declare yourself a 5.9 climber,

I liked his reasoning, because are you a 5.9 climber if you hike face and sport routes at the grade but get your ass handed to you on an offwidth at the same grade?
Ty Harlacker · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 231
Mike wrote:Ty that chart from FOTH is nice, but seems to be aimed more towards old-school trad routes.
Yeah that would seem more accurate. However, I don't know that a 5.15 trad route exists. Or that 5.15 has been around long enough to be considered "old-school".
Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880
JPVallone wrote: I have to disagree with the ski statement, What is a double black diamond anyway, and if you just got down the run are you an expert skier since its an expert run, I think the frozen ribbon of death in October at Colorado ski resorts, with 100's of pre season enthusiasts whizzing by out of control, is way more technical then skiing a 30cm fresh run on what a colorado resort would call a double black. You can't rate ski runs in my book. too many variables, What if its a powder run today on a blue run and you were a hero, but tomorrow that same run is frozen icy, slide for life bumps and you have to side slip it? and as far as claiming a grade and your ability to say you are a certain level climber. Werner Braun once told me while I was living in the Valley that if you think you are a 5.9 climber then you should of led and sent 50 different pitches at the grade in the Valley. Slab, Sport, Finger Crack, Offwidth, Chimney, Face, Hand Crack, roofs, etc and every style you could find in the area. After that then you can claim the grade and declare yourself a 5.9 climber, I liked his reasoning, because are you a 5.9 climber if you hike face and sport routes at the grade but get your ass handed to you on an offwidth at the same grade?
I understand what you are saying here, I was just aiming for the general level of being a fall-line skier as an example of a level of mastery. Just as climbing has a lot beyond 5.12, skiing, golf, surfing, etc, etc, etc all do too. My point is that there is a line between weekend enthusiasts and masters who actually dedicate a lot of time and effort.
M Lindfors · · Highlands Ranch · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 35

When I take my kids climbing there are almost never waits for the harder (5.11 or higher) climbs and scads of people lined up for 5.8 to 5.10 climbs. Very few people have the drive to work hard enough to send 12's. Also are we talking outside? Outside is way harder because there are not hard flourescent projections to grab. Route finding is part of the skill. On a 5.10 I always tell my kids if you stand up and there is no hold you are off route!

Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493

My hardest on sights are 5.11d sport and 5.11b trad. I can and feel confident in my ability to redpoint .12c sport in a dozen attempts and .12a trad in a several attempts. I've never ever considered myself a 5.12 climber. I can follow WI5, but would poo my pants trying to lead it. I'm not a WI5 climber either.

I've always considered my climbing level to be the grade I expect to normally on sight. I feel like, for me, working a route and memorizing sequences just brings it down to my level. I'm not somehow stronger once I have a route memorized. For me, the .12 eventually becomes as hard as what I'm normally capable of climbing without falling: 5.11. I know that's not how most look at it, but since I climb mostly traditional routes, I see myself as and tell others who ask that I'm a low 5.11 climber. I'm nowhere near as strong as a guy who regularly on sights .12b, but has never redpointed a .13a. By most folks' standards, we'd both be called 5.12 climbers. That's bullcrap. On sight ability is so much more meaningful for me.

I was on D7 on the Diamond last August for the first time. I got super painful cramps in my arms and couldn't finish. I don't think a 5.12 climber should have those kinds of problems on an .11.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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