2 person rappelling

I simul-rap fairly frequently, and usually not with a prussik/autoblock.

As far as Ryan's question goes, I will say that if you have a significant weight difference from your partner, I've noticed some shifting of the rope, but only at the start of the rap. If the rope is going over some sort of edge (ie, it's not vertical rock) then the friction on the rope does a really good job at preventing the heavy climber from "hoisting you". Once you really get going on rappel, it's fine.

On less than vertical terrain, if you hit a flat spot/ledge and stand up a little, the partner will notice a few inches of play before you resume again.

That said, even on vertical terrain, I've not found it to be an issue with a 40lb difference between me and my partner.

Now if you had a frictionless rap point at the anchor...

Peter Springs wrote:I simul-rap fairly frequently,

Why? 2 pages and I still don't understand the purpose. I see some pretty experienced climbers here who like this method, what am I missing?

Rick Blair wrote: Why? 2 pages and I still don't understand the purpose. I see some pretty experienced climbers here who like this method, what am I missing?

Because two people rapping at once is faster than going one at a time. Or at least that's the idea.

If you and your partner are very experienced together and do this often then you are probably pretty fast. If you have to do 4,5,6 double rope rappels it's probably faster. How much so? Who knows.

I personally don't think I'd be able to rap very fast on a 60m single line. I've done a lot of single line raps and simul-raps but never really tried to go fast. I don't think I'd feel comfortable... not enough stopping power w/ the belay device I usually use.

I can, however, zip down 60 meters on two ropes very fast, especially if it's not dark. So for me and most of my partners, simul-rapping doesn't really make sense.

And EVAN, I wasn't trying to argue or be a jerk... just wasn't sure about your intended tone. I guess that's the problem with the internet.

Ryan Williams wrote: Because two people rapping at once is faster than going one at a time. Or at least that's the idea.

Scenario here is you have to rap down fast, for whatever reason, here's what you got.

2 experienced climbers can rap down separately, simultaneously rigging their rap with a cow tail if they want, and do it almost as fast.

2 experienced climbers could simul-rap, greatly decreasing the margin of safety in a situation where we have already determined they are in a hurry. They will probably have to descend the rope more slowly to make sure everything is counterbalanced properly.

1 novice and 1 experienced climber simul-rap, sounds like cluster F--- to me and mucho dangerous to boot. If the novice is freaked, a better choice is to both cow tail on to the same rap device.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say never do this.

Looking for a good critique of the above because honestly, I am incredulous some of you intelligent folks are doing this.

Although slightly different, Needles-style simulraps raise some of the same issues.

mountainproject.com/v/10605…

one totally unscientific observation ...

2 macho men rapping down ... simul ... KOWABUNGA!!!

2 wussy men rapping down ... single one at a time ... i dun wanna die !!!

1 real man and one hawt chick rapping down ... tandem, man behind girl, pressing very closely ... "this is how ya do it baby, just slide yr hands over that sheath"

1 wussy man and one chick (what he can get) rapping down ... tandem, girl behind guy ... ummmmmmmm???

2 men with alternative tastes rapping down ... tandem, the one behind is the alpha ... whatever floats yr boat

hmmmmmm ...

Rick Blair wrote: Why? 2 pages and I still don't understand the purpose. I see some pretty experienced climbers here who like this method, what am I missing?

Couple reasons for me.

1. Multi-pitch is where I use it the most. 6 raps in the time it takes to do 3. 12 raps in the time it'd take to do 6, etc, etc. That's a significant time savings, which is helpful for getting down quickly.

2. Good for beating storms or being exposed to the elements(hugely safer imo).

3. Less potential time spent rapping in the dark (another huge margin of safety avoiding rapping in the dark).

4. Also, you can have each person work on getting the rope untangled, instead of one person doing it. Not always an issue, but when it is, it's much easier to untangle it.

These are my main reasons.

For single pitch, I'd agree that it's not really worth it.

Also, don't get me wrong... some raps are fairly serious for a number of reasons. In such cases we skip simul-rapping.

Peter Springs wrote: 1. Multi-pitch is where I use it the most. 6 raps in the time it takes to do 3. 12 raps in the time it'd take to do 6, etc, etc. That's a significant time savings, which is helpful for getting down quickly.

So you believe you are cutting in half the time it take you to rap a pitch by doing this? Don't you find this technique requires you to rap slower than you would one at a time. How long does it take one person to rap a rope, how much time are you saving by cutting this in half?

PRRose wrote:Although slightly different, Needles-style simulraps raise some of the same issues. mountainproject.com/v/10605…

Finally a scenario where I can actually see a use for this. This is what I have been looking for. Thanks!

I love raping like this! So efficient if you do it right.

This roughly shows what would happen if the climber on the knot side of the rope let go, assuming the climber on the side opposite of the knot had a backup and held the belay. The climbers are also attached with a runner between them.

If the right climber let go of their rappel, the knot would jam into the anchor, and the climber would weight the tether of the backed up (left) climber. This would theoretically work assuming the knot did not go through the anchor.

Rick Blair wrote: So you believe you are cutting in half the time it take you to rap a pitch by doing this? Don't you find this technique requires you to rap slower than you would one at a time. How long does it take one person to rap a rope, how much time are you saving by cutting this in half?

How long does it take you to get down 6 pitches? Simul-rapping isn't quite "half" as fast, but pretty close to half the time.

I'd encourage you to time rapping this way sometime.

Here's my two cents -

I'm a bit of a lightweight (110 - 115 lbs), most of my climbing partners outweigh me by a good 40 pounds and I haven't had problems with simul-rapping. I find it a bit awkward to initially weight the rope with someone a lot heavier than me, but as long as we both weight it slowly it's been fine.

The times that I've found this most useful have been places where there's high potential for rockfall. That way, you don't have one climber down at the anchor and another one rapping down knocking choss on their head.

And as far as the AMGA stuff, I did a RIC in July 2010 and we never talked about simul-rapping, maybe that's changed recently. I like it for my personal climbing when I want a speedy retreat or if there's rockfall potential, but I wouldn't feel quite comfortable using it with a client or a novice.

Owen Darrow wrote:I love raping like this! So efficient if you do it right.

heh.

Excellent recent discussion on simul-rapping here:

supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

Thanks folks for all the inputs! My partner and I have decided that it is not a good idea to just it until we get some practice close to ground.

But as the weight difference and the synchronization are the main issue with this rap methods, I think I will save it when we really need it in hurry, otherwise a normal rap is sufficient enough :)

wgc75 wrote:Another issue to be aware about when simul-rapping is the weight difference between you and your partner. I climb with a friend who I outweigh by a good 60 pounds and while we've done this routinely on slab where you can use your feet to help control your decent I'd be very wary or doing it on a vertical or free-hanging rap. In any case I think you'd always want to have the heavier climber on the side of the rope opposite the knots/anchor as talked about earlier.

This is not an issue. I outweight my girlfriend by 80 lbs. I simul rap with her often. Friction at the anchor takes care of this.

Greg D wrote: This is not an issue. I outweight my girlfriend by 80 lbs. I simul rap with her often. Friction at the anchor takes care of this.

This. I do the same thing with my girlfriend. I just make sure I'm pulling the knot into the anchor before we take off. I go over first pulling the knot tight and she stays snug to the rope and comes over about 5-10 feet above me. When I get to the next belay I stop and stay locked off until she gets there. Usually I'll leg wrap real quick and clip to the anchor too.

Owen Darrow wrote:I love raping like this! So efficient if you do it right.

I "practice" this frequently with the people I climb multi-pitch with. I want my team to be able to use our ATC's with an autoblock to get our butts down as quickly and efficiently as possible. Know your partner, know what they have in their "toolbox" and the decision is much clearer as to which method is appropriate for your team.
I reserve this method for the time I need to get down fast due mainly to a pending storm. I have yet to use it except for practice but the day we need to, we will be ready.

roger fritz wrote: I "practice" this frequently with the people I climb multi-pitch with. I want my team to be able to use our ATC's with an autoblock to get our butts down as quickly and efficiently as possible. Know your partner, know what they have in their "toolbox" and the decision is much clearer as to which method is appropriate for your team. I reserve this method for the time I need to get down fast due mainly to a pending storm. I have yet to use it except for practice but the day we need to, we will be ready.

Oh yea, there are times when the additional seconds you save on getting something accomplished quicker can be the difference between life and death!