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2 person rappelling

Original Post
Bang Nhan · · Charlottesville, VA · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 35

Hi folks,

Just to clarify that I am not attempting to execute this. But when I was climbing with my partner on a multi-pitch climb, there were two climbers on the route ahead of us. They decide to rap off from the second pitch. They rapped off at the same time with each person on each strand of the rope attached to their atcs. I wonder if this method is even safe?

When I was researching, all I can find is the tandem rappelling, which is used if one of the climber is injured.

Thanks!

camhead · · Vandalia, Appalachia · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,240

it's called simul-rapping. you can probably think of the dangers involved, but it is a very fast and efficient way to get off a route quickly. Tie knots in the ends of your ropes, use gri gris, and stay about the same level as your partner. When one person gets to the ground or rap station, he obviously does not go off rappel until the partner is off rappel either.

that's about it.

Evan1984 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 30

The only other thing to add is that if you are doing this on two ropes tied together, you want to be on the on the side of the anchor opposite the knot.

The theory is that then, even if your partner unweight his end, the knot will still bind up in the anchor.

mark felber · · Wheat Ridge, CO · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 41

Synchro-rappelling is certainly a faster way for two people to get down from a climb, but there are definitely a few added risks. If you're trying to get down a long descent before darkness or bad weather set in then it can be a useful technique, but very few people do this on a routine basis.

Both parties should be moving at about the same speed for this to work, and both parties have to be at a secure stance before either party takes their brake hand off the rope.

I did this once on a long descent, on a couple of low angle rappels. My partner and I agreed that syncro rappelling would be much harder to do safely on a free-hanging rappel, or even on a vertical rappel.

Evan, your theory is great, but it only works for one person.

bkwrm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 55

Couple other things to think about.

-In general you need to both cross the lip at the same time. If one person descends over the lip while the other is standing near the anchor, they will be pulled up towards the anchor which can be disconcerting. With two ropes, this can be avoided by having the person opposite the knot between the ropes rap first. With one rope not so much.
-Also full body weight is on one strand of the rope which can be a problem depending on what the rope rubs over on the lip (ie, sharp). One rope will move easier than two strands on the lip which can damage/cut the rope. I had to tell my partner not to bounce around like a noob as I watched his end bounce all over a sharp edge.
-I second the backup knots. No grigris? How bout an autoblock below the rappel devices.

Derek M · · VA · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 100

If you have tied good knots in the end of the rope (and oh my god, DO THIS), are autoblocks actually necessary, or even relevant? Even if one person loses control and falls all the way to the ground, their body weight is still on the rope, causing no problem for the person still rappelling.

I am having trouble envisioning a scenario in which an autoblock would actually be helpful in the presence of good knots. The only thing I can come up with is that if a person loses control and falls all the way to the end of the rope and is stopped only by the knot, this may put a big load on the rappel anchor. Anything else?

wgc75 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 0

Another issue to be aware about when simul-rapping is the weight difference between you and your partner. I climb with a friend who I outweigh by a good 60 pounds and while we've done this routinely on slab where you can use your feet to help control your decent I'd be very wary or doing it on a vertical or free-hanging rap. In any case I think you'd always want to have the heavier climber on the side of the rope opposite the knots/anchor as talked about earlier.

DannyUncanny · · Vancouver · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 100
mission wrote:I am having trouble envisioning a scenario in which an autoblock would actually be helpful in the presence of good knots. The only thing I can come up with is that if a person loses control and falls all the way to the end of the rope and is stopped only by the knot, this may put a big load on the rappel anchor. Anything else?
Ummm, for not falling to the end of the rope in the first place?
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
Evan Horvath aka Evan1984 wrote:The only other thing to add is that if you are doing this on two ropes tied together, you want to be on the on the side of the anchor opposite the knot. The theory is that then, even if your partner unweight his end, the knot will still bind up in the anchor.
There is a lot of information missing here. I understand what you are saying, but I don't exactly understand why you are saying it. And your statement is certainly not an end all. Can you elaborate?

Are you joking? Just saying "make sure you're on the safe side so if you're partner fucks up he's the one that goes splat! ;)"
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
mission wrote:If you have tied good knots in the end of the rope (and oh my god, DO THIS), are autoblocks actually necessary, or even relevant? Even if one person loses control and falls all the way to the ground, their body weight is still on the rope, causing no problem for the person still rappelling. I am having trouble envisioning a scenario in which an autoblock would actually be helpful in the presence of good knots. The only thing I can come up with is that if a person loses control and falls all the way to the end of the rope and is stopped only by the knot, this may put a big load on the rappel anchor. Anything else?
You are acting like someone loosing control and falling all the way to the ground is not a bad thing? THE REASON FOR AN AUTOBLOCK IS TO KEEP YOU FROM LOOSING CONTROL OF THE ROPE! If you're rapping on a single line, they make things a lot easier, especially if you have a pack/rack/whatever hanging between your legs.
doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
wgc75 wrote:Another issue to be aware about when simul-rapping is the weight difference between you and your partner. I climb with a friend who I outweigh by a good 60 pounds and while we've done this routinely on slab where you can use your feet to help control your decent I'd be very wary or doing it on a vertical or free-hanging rap. In any case I think you'd always want to have the heavier climber on the side of the rope opposite the knots/anchor as talked about earlier.
Have you actually done that or are just speculating? I have simul-rapped with a much heavier partner on a vertical terrain and the weight difference was not an issue.
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
mission wrote:If you have tied good knots in the end of the rope (and oh my god, DO THIS), are autoblocks actually necessary, or even relevant? Even if one person loses control and falls all the way to the ground, their body weight is still on the rope, causing no problem for the person still rappelling. I am having trouble envisioning a scenario in which an autoblock would actually be helpful in the presence of good knots. The only thing I can come up with is that if a person loses control and falls all the way to the end of the rope and is stopped only by the knot, this may put a big load on the rappel anchor. Anything else?
1. If one person loses control and falls all the way to the ground, their body weight is NOT still on the rope. It is on the ground.
2. Their body would also probably not be in great shape, which would probably be kind of a big deal to them and their partner.
3. If they fall all the way to the end of the rope, even if they do not end up on the ground, there's potential for getting pretty banged up along the way, ditto for their partner. Hopefully their partner doesn't lose control of their side of the rope in the process.

The knots in the end of the rope are meant to keep you from rapping off the ends of your rope. Falling down the entire length of your rope, knots or no knots, would be a bad thing that you do not want to happen, whether you are rapping alone or simul with a partner. The reason people tend to recommend using autoblocks in this situation even if they wouldn't on a normal rappel is that you are basically doubling your risk exposure. If one person gets knocked out by rockfall, for example, and loses control of their brake strand, that is very bad for them. In simul rapping, if either person loses control, it is very bad for both.
Dom Caron · · Welsford, New Brunswick Canada · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 1,370

Just wanna add that where I climb, I almost always belay from the top off trees to minimize rope wear. As a result, I almost always descend by simu-rapping with my Gf who is 60 lbs lighter than I am. We also both use ATC's.

If you do it right, it's a very safe procedure. If you feel sketched out, you can use a french prusik (I hate the regular prusik, so hard to unlock) to back up your atc. (no need to carry two grigris up a climb).

Also, as BKWRM has said make sure you go over the lip at the same time or at the very least, that the lightest person goes over the lip first.

Don't put your weight off the rope until you are both down on the ground!

Happy climbing.

Derek M · · VA · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 100
Em Cos wrote: 1. If one person loses control and falls all the way to the ground, their body weight is NOT still on the rope. It is on the ground... In simul rapping, if either person loses control, it is very bad for both.
Regarding 1, their body weight continues to anchor the rope through the anchor, causing no problem for the person still rappelling.

I still don't see how one person losing control is very bad for both.
Derek M · · VA · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 100
DannyUncanny wrote: Ummm, for not falling to the end of the rope in the first place?
This is an argument for using autoblocks in general. Why do people who do not use autoblocks for regular rappels insist on them for simuls?
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
mission wrote: This is an argument for using autoblocks in general. Why do people who do not use autoblocks for regular rappels insist on them for simuls?
How do you know that we don't use them for "regular rappels?" I certainly do. But a better answer is:

Because if you don't use one on a normal rap, and you loose control, you fall to your death, leaving me the rope to rap down with. Not good, but at least I'm still alive.

Loose control and go splat when I'm on the other side of the rope and I'm going to die as well. Not good.
DannyUncanny · · Vancouver · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 100
mission wrote: This is an argument for using autoblocks in general. Why do people who do not use autoblocks for regular rappels insist on them for simuls?
I would always autoblock on any multipitch rappel, and the only situation I would be simul-rappelling would be on a multipitch rappel for speed and rockfall safety.

But in general, I think it weighs heavier on someone's mind when the consequence is not just their own life but someone else's safety as well. A safety conscious partner might insist that the other uses an autoblock for their own protection.

Suppose the rappel is not pure vertical, you are likely to fall for a while tumble and hit a ledge, break your legs and then have the rope zip through your device as your partner falls and hits the same ledge or pulls you up into the air. Lots of things to hit on the way down, and lots of sharp edges for your rope to go zipping across with the weight of two people on it.

The other thing I have seen people do for safety is link themselves together with a long sling. In my opinion this is a bit of a CF.
Garrett R. · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 25
mission wrote: This is an argument for using autoblocks in general. Why do people who do not use autoblocks for regular rappels insist on them for simuls?
It's a single-line rappel, so less friction and easier to lose control... and you have the added responsibility of staying at about the same level of your partner. Also if you for some reason get to the end of the rap well before your partner you'll need to hang.
Derek M · · VA · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 100

Okay, nevermind, I figured it out. With no autoblocks:

-Climber 1 falls to end of rope and gets knocked out. Nothing is wrong, as Climber 1 is still weighting the rope and the knot holds the belay device. Climber 2 may be in for a problematic rescue scenario, but he won't die at least.
-Climber 1 hits the ground and gets knocked out. Now, there is a big problem because Climber 2 will get lowered (well, dropped) by Climber 1's belay device. Even if this is auto-locking, I definitely would not want to trust it unattended with my life.

Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155
mission wrote: Regarding 1, their body weight continues to anchor the rope through the anchor, causing no problem for the person still rappelling. I still don't see how one person losing control is very bad for both.
You're assuming that the end of the rope is just barely touching the ground. Consider the situation where you have 30ft of extra rope on the ground. If one person loses control and falls to the ground, even when they hit the ground there's still another 30ft of rope before they hit their knot. That last 30ft would slip through their belay device until it reaches the knot, effectively dropping your partner 30ft.
Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266

If I was in a hurry I would just have the last rappeler cowtail and add their device to the rope at the same time as the first person. First person raps, second person raps. This would add maybe 2 minutes over simul rappeling. While this may be a good tool to have in your bag of tricks I have trouble seeing where I would ever use this technique. One person gets jacked on the rappel and 2 could go down, no bueno. Sometimes I love the way climbers minds work.

Ryan, I'm pretty sure Evan was making a joke, I laughed when I read it.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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