Multipitch Belaying off Harness vs. Anchors

Yarp wrote: You post has got me thinking that maybe I should see how my belay loop is doing underneath all that duct tape.

Did something like the duct tape thing for many years too, for abrasion resistance as Darren stated (actually sliced a piece of 1" tubular vertically and resewed it back onto the loop). However, why? I think you're better off knowing precisely the condition of the belay loop instead of just the duct tape. With "normal" usage, the belay loop should last way longer than your yankering to get the latest and greatest new harness, so why bother with the duct tape?

Thanks for the link RGold. I like your reasons for doing this more.

I don't actually have duct tape on my harness. That would be just silly. I just made that up to make myself feel better while taking a jab at Darren because I think his reasons for clipping the belay loop are just as silly as duct tape on your belay loop.

While I found parts of this thread interesting, I must say I don't see the need to belay a second(s) off the harness. That makes no sense - use your anchors to do this, that is what they are for. ie belay directly from the belay. When belaying a leader on multi- pitch routes revert back to your harness and use the rope loop if you so desire.

Francis Kelsey wrote:I don't see the need to belay a second(s) off the harness. That makes no sense - use your anchors to do this, that is what they are for. ie belay directly from the belay. When belaying a leader on multi- pitch routes revert back to your harness and use the rope loop if you so desire.

There can be little question that the Western European public, now followed by the American public, seems to be adopting this position, in part because of the pervasive bolting of belay anchors on climbs. These bolts are always in just the right position for setting up a belay off the anchor.

Once you get off the beaten bolted track, things are a little different. Anchors may be too low or too spread out. I've seen several parties set up inferior anchors so that they can belay off them rather than using far better options which, however, would not permit a belay off the anchor; apparently a focus on belaying off the anchor can blind the party to the best choices.

I've also seen parties belay off anchors I would consider questionable when indeed nothing better is available, but there are truly solid braced positions for what would have been a hip belay in the old days but is now a harness belay. In these cases too, a slavish commitment to belaying off the anchor resulted in a far less secure situation for the party.

Finally, I see parties setting up really awkward situations because of an insistence on belaying off an anchor. One typical scenario is an anchor on a wall behind a large ledge. The belay off the anchor devotee sets up a belay at the anchor at the wall, and the rope runs fifteen feet to the edge of the ledge and over it. Instead of sitting at the edge and being in full communication with the second, the anchor belayer is way back out of sight and out of earshot, with lots of extra friction impeding taking in because of the bend over the edge.

Belays off the harness allow for body bracing strategies and accommodate all kinds of anchor configurations that are really awkward, if not unworkable, for a direct belay off the anchor. Knowing how to do both and choosing the method most suitable to the situation at hand is way better than a one-size-fits-all approach.

I like the discussion and it has solidified my intuition that it is best for the lead to clip into the Master Point of the anchor/shelf etc. I am not sure about the highest piece, might as well use the equalized, multidirectional anchor. Best catch the lead vs. drop him!! As for clipping the top piece vs. the MP/shelf; statistically there is a higher probability of all 3 pieces failing if you clip just the highest piece versus the multidirectional equalized anchor (at least the way I work it out - although, each piece should be able to hold a fall by themselves).

As for belaying off the harness for a second, I definitely never would have thought to do that, but I have never had that situation. Sounds like a discretionary decision.

rgold wrote:Putting the belay device into the rope tie-in rather than the belay loop is common practice in the UK. Here is a link to a discussion about pros and cons: ukclimbing.com/articles/pag…. I first learned about it many years ago from Chris Harmston, then the BD engineer and one of the most authoritative voices on climbing safety procedures I've encountered, and since then, I have always belayed this way. It has nothing to do with mistrusting or sparing the belay loop. A factor-2 directly onto the belay loop does, however, put all kinds of opposing forces on the harness which the device on the rope tie-in eliminates.

thank you for the explanation!

and Yarp, jab away! ;)

something that i try to do when possible; if my partner is leading the next pitch, when i lead up to a belay spot i try to climb past it and put in a couple pieces to give them a 'head start' on their pitch. then i downclimb to my belay spot and build my anchor. this helps keep my belay a little cleaner, eliminates their attempt at FF2'ing onto my anchor, etc.

I find it better to belay my second up off my harness with a redirect due to not having to take my belay device off and on throughout the climb. I have a fear of dropping the device. Nice to have it on

Ben Bilbrough wrote: I find it better to belay my second up off my harness with a redirect due to not having to take my belay device off and on throughout the climb. I have a fear of dropping the device. Nice to have it on

If you lose it, Munter hitch off the anchor can be a great alternative.  Edit: when belaying up a follower.

https://youtu.be/eqZQnCGl24A 
Here's a link to some testing done at the French Alpine research facility.  I'm not ready for this much change yet, but food for thought...

Ignoring the fact that this thread is from 2011 and just about all of the members have since moved on with their lives, I’m just going to highlight this bit of MP gold:

slim wrote:eliminates their attempt at FF2'ing onto my anchor, etc.

Lol!

Ted Pinson wrote:Ignoring the fact that this thread is from 2011 and just about all of the members have since moved on with their lives...

Seriously, does hardly anyone read the date of the last post before offering their vitally important $0.02?

Marc801 C wrote: Seriously, does hardly anyone read the date of the last post before offering their vitally important $0.02?

People dont even read the OP or replies before putting in their 2 fuckin cents....

I know i sure didn't before replying

5.Seven Kevin wrote:

People dont even read the OP or replies before putting in their 2 fuckin cents....

I know i sure didn't before replying

Is there an OP? Isn’t that like the holy grail?   I thought we’re all in One Thread, just sometimes different parts.  ;)

Ben Bilbrough wrote: I find it better to belay my second up off my harness with a redirect due to not having to take my belay device off and on throughout the climb. I have a fear of dropping the device. Nice to have it on

Thanks for bumping an 8-year-old thread to share that, bro.

Ben Bilbrough wrote: I find it better to belay my second up off my harness with a redirect due to not having to take my belay device off and on throughout the climb. I have a fear of dropping the device. Nice to have it on

Wait, so you're climbing all day with an ATC dangling in front of you off of your belay loop?  That sounds really annoying.  

I got used to it and I really like not messing with taking it on and off. Just my preference. Everybody calls me out on it though.

Ben Bilbrough wrote: I got used to it and I really like not messing with taking it on and off. Just my preference. Everybody calls me out on it though.

Is this kind of similar to CBT? The fact that every time you move it will be slapping you in the 'nads doesn't bother you? Or does the chastity cage prevent that?

John Badila wrote:

Wait, so you're climbing all day with an ATC dangling in front of you off of your belay loop?  That sounds really annoying.  

Old veteran climber friend of mine does the same.

I don’t.  But that is because I worry about it catching on rock. To get our weight over our feet, ya really gotta hug the rock if you have a big bum.

Sometimes I'll just carry an extra harness up the route, clip its belay loop into the anchor, clip another locker into the belay loop, and then guide mode belay off of that. Is it safe?