Roadside Crag at RRG Closed

Oh man that sucks! I hope this doesn't happen anywhere else.

Killis Howard wrote:Hey, squabblers. I hate to interrupt the useless slagging, I know there's a lot of sexual frustration that needs to be worked out in a fairly useless way, and far be it from me to interrupt one's squandering of the corporate dimes, but this seems significant: The closure is not permanent. The closure was predicated by dickheads, dogs, and permadraws, and a new(ish) route. So why don't those who live close enough to make things happen remove the permadraws- where they end up is unimportant, as long as they're not contributing to another situation like this anytime soon. Someone who knows what they're doing please pull the bolts on the offending route, which sounds like a grungy abandoned pile, patch the holes, and organize a trail day to clean up and work on the cliff base area. Anyone who has the skills to do so puts up a no dogs no music no permadraws no hammock sign, and THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED FOR EVERYONE. In terms of your typical access issue, this one seems like a simple fix. Stop the dickheadery and the fun continues for everyone. I love Roadside and have trouble remembering seeing more than eight cars at Roadside parking, so the epic nature of all this waiting and dogging (pun intended) is pretty hard to imagine. Sounds like a shit show the likes of which you'd be hard-pressed to find in Vegas, and that's saying something. Please keep a respectful dialogue going with the landowners, display sympathy and a willingness to undo what's been done, and don't be that asshole with the mutt and the bad techno displaying the lowest common denominator. Please.

Well said. If I were home, I'd make the 8 hour drive tomorrow and pull those bolts out, patch the holes and keep a few perma-draws for my hard work. But I'm not home, I'm stuck in a God forsaken city that is so far from good climbing that I am thinking about running a marathon next year!

It's really sad that people don't know how to take care of natural resources, but again I have to say that I am not at all surprised that crags at the Red are treated this way. A large percentage of climbers at the Red have never climbed outdoors anywhere else, and spend nearly all of their time at some gym in . That is the state of climbing.

One thing I DO like about living in the UK is that people here take care of the natural areas they have, and climbers specifically are still known to be a user group that adhere to a strict code of environmental ethics. Here, even the most ignorant people understand how precious the planet is, and even the most gumby climbers understand what real rock climbing is all about.

The Red has always been a special place, not only for the climbing, but because it is an example of how hard work, generosity and good planning and good behavior can keep climbing areas open. Hopefully this incident is just a hiccup, and not the start of a trend.

Chris treggE wrote: Totally! Seeing people behave like that at other crags would be terrible.

Facetious?

Killis Howard wrote: I love Roadside and have trouble remembering seeing more than eight cars at Roadside parking, so the epic nature of all this waiting and dogging (pun intended) is pretty hard to imagine. Sounds like a shit show the likes of which you'd be hard-pressed to find in Vegas, and that's saying something.

I've ended several weekends this spring with a Sunday evening climb at roadside and the description is dead on. The crag is simply too nice and too easy to access (roadside) to be sustainable. I imagine the owners will start a lottery permit system like the one at torrent falls.

For those who don't want to wade through many pages of posts on the RRGCC forum, here is a brief summary of the situation at Roadside Crag along with a little background on this area.

Recently, the owners of the land where Roadside is situated visited the crag and found numerous instances of climber abuse to their property. This included installation of permadraws on certain routes; unauthorized new routes; climbers urinating/defecating at the crag; untended dogs digging holes; and general overcrowding.

As a result, the owners have closed Roadside to climbing. Before it can be reopened, the new routes and permadraws must be removed; also, the owners are working on implementing a permit system to relieve the chronic overcrowding at the cliff. There will also likely be new signage installed to warn climbers of behaviors that are prohibited.

Though thousands of climbers from all over the country visit the Red River Gorge every year, many are probably not aware that a significant percentage of the clifflines is privately-owned. Roadside Crag is such a cliff. The Graining Fork Nature Preserve, of which Roadside is a part, was purchased in 2004 by two local climbers, Grant Stephens and John Haight. Stephens and Haight had been climbing at Roadside from the time it was first established as a climbing destination in 1984. Their express purpose in creating the preserve was to ensure continued access to climbing, which makes the current closure all the more regrettable.

What if we left the Roadside out of all new guide books printed? I understand this isn't the ultimate answer but if it wasn't in the guide book it might discourage a few folks. I'm trying to think outside of the box.

JJNS wrote:What if we left the Roadside out of all new guide books printed? I understand this isn't the ultimate answer but if it wasn't in the guide book it might discourage a few folks. I'm trying to think outside of the box.

That would just put more pressure on the rest of the Red (which is what is going to happen now anyways).

Too many people want to be rock climbers, and too many climbers need to be fed everything with a silver spoon. I'm not sure there is a way around that problem. Kind of like the problem of the earth being overpopulated by about 4 billion people.

Ryan Williams wrote:Not saying that 5.10 climbers are the ones making all the bad decisions, just that there are a ton more of them than climbers who can spend a whole day at the Motherlode.

This is not to discount the douchebag factor at the Motherlode either, however. The place has been a shitshow this spring. The Red has "easier" and more accessible hard routes than any other area I've been to. Climbing 5.12, even 5.13 is no guarantee that you are going to get an area or a place to yourself.

Here is a simple solution:

Chop all the bolts on all 10's and below. Chop every other bolt on all 11's. As a result the gymrat will go back to the gym. Such a nice area. If I would be still leaving in Ohio, I would take the permadraws myself. One could never have enough bail binners.

Nick Rhoads wrote:Make everyone lead on gear only, THAT will stop the bullshit! LOL! I remember when you could camp at the Roadside parking lot. Now those were the days!

Yes Nick those were the days, I've heard that one still has to learn to sail at Annapolis Naval Academy. Quite a good conversation and the problems presented at the RRG do not surprise me, I've been involved in access issues since sport climbing began and many of these issues were a train on the track for some time. There are no easy answers to overcrowding except some type of permit/lottery system. One of the more troubling issues is simply dealing with that much human waste in an outdoor setting where maintaining any type of facilities is problematic.

Over on RRG there was conversation about this coming weekend and expecting a large group from Canada, and still another spoke of a large group from Massachusetts that had visited.I do think some of this overcrowding can be contributed to the bolting of the lower grades, I've seen this happen at Drapers, where I think sanitation and crowd dynamics played a part in its closing, and in spite of the bolts there are still accidents.

Maybe the definition of a climber ought to be if there were no bolts could you still climb?

I doubt chopping bolts or forcing people to climb on gear is really the answer. As I read these suggestions I can almost smell a certain elitism as well--or is that just my own sh!t stinking? Being a d-bag and disrespecting the resource and access to it is hardly confined to newbie climbers or even gym climbers I imagine. Being a self absorbed narcissistic prick is certain to follow a climber even as they progress to being a 5.rockgod climber.

Personally I mostly toprope and climb trad but I was hoping to start climbing some sport this summer 1. Because sport climbers smell better and bring nicer food with them to the crag and 2. Because I wanted to push my climbing ability so I could more comfortably lead harder stuff on gear. Being able to climb a sustained route at the edge of my athletic ability without worrying about pumping out while I ask myself is it #4 nut--no a #3-- shit no! it was a #4 just wiggled a little-- I suspect that would be an awesome experience.

It sucks when we loose access but limiting access to those of us who were last to get here doesn't necessarily make sense-- it just feels okay to those of you who were already here.

Ryan Williams wrote:Too many people want to be rock climbers, and too many climbers need to be fed everything with a silver spoon. I'm not sure there is a way around that problem. Kind of like the problem of the earth being overpopulated by about 4 billion people.

Indeed.
But....
I'm one of those people that wants to be a rock climber...

Disclaimer....I've never been to the RRG and have never had a desire. I am, however, very interested in, well traveled amongst, and dedicated to the climbing in the SE. Mainly the TAG and Western NC areas.

My point is this:

People should be smart enough to disperse and diversify.
There is so much climbing in the SE that no one area should be so overused if everyone spread out a bit...which they probably won't.

The entire SouthEast to include KY, NC, TN, GA, AL is riddled with major and minor crags. Even SC and MS have quality areas for certain pursuits. Each of the little, minor crags have great routes and mediocre ones alike hidden safely from the masses in neat, rarely-visitied spots. Even the big ones (take The Tennesse Wall for example) get so worn and trodden upon in the popular areas (like The Orange Blossom Wall) with other areas (Cibola, way right, etc.) rarely visited.
Same is true at Looking Glass in NC, Sandrock in AL is totally wrecked from over use, Tallulah in GA sees 95% on it's traffic confined to one little area...as a few examples. It's the same in every state down here, but it doesn't make alot of sense to me.

Take my lowly home-state of Alabama....

Our most popular crag is Sandrock. Predominantly sport with climbs of all grades. Many bolted routes 11 and under. Mostly high quality of their own right, but with a few crappy lines thrown in for good measure. SR is heavily frequented by Atlantians and Birminghamians, alike. Easy access, mindless bolted climbs, simple camping, big parking lot, lots of people. Totally used and abused. Personally, I rarely, if ever, go here.
Then, there's the world class bouldering at Horse Pens 40 of which we've all, no doubt, heard.
Beyond that, you rarely hear of folks climbing elsewhere in our little steep Sandstone paradise....and I mean it when I say, paradise...but that's beside the point.
There are, at least, 8 other significant clifflines/formations in our little state, all within an hour of SR...everything you could want....easy sport, hard sport, traditional routes, boulders, short climbs, tall climbs, etc, etc. Beautiful scenery. Peaceful locations. Good views. Some with swimming holes, some with easy approaches. Yes, the sport is harder, the access a little more complex, and the gear routes more common, but these areas remain free from overuse while everyone is clipping bolts, tripping over dogs, listening to their iPods at SR.
SR is our Roadside, or very similar.

Mind you, I'm selfish and I want my little backwoods trad crags all to myself, but these issues could be avoided with some diversification. Obviously, we should all be concerned. If you're like me (selfish, trad-route-centric), you won't want to see these areas closed as people will disperse and conceivably bring this brand of tomfoolery with them. OTOH, resources are limited and no one wants to see any natural areas trampled and turned into a carnival of dog turds and Clif bar wrappers. Same at my little dingy climbing spots...
Same in KY.
Same in Indian Creek.
Same in The Valley.
Right?
Diversify, people. Act right. Cliff closures suck for us all.

Paul Barnes wrote:Don't you work??

You know the old saying: a bad day at Sand Rock is better than a good day at work.

Paul Barnes wrote:That said: Roadside is way better than Sandrock. AND... Climbing is eventually going to become like hunting down around here. People are only going to let you on their land if they know you, and know you aren't a dumbass. Personally...I'm ok with that.

Climbing conditions are going to be vastly improved after Oct. 21, when all the riffraff get taken by the Rapture.

JL

What I am a little unclear about is the whole Training Fork Nature Preserve, LLC thing. Was this entity started by climbers? How was the land purchased if so?

Stich wrote:What I am a little unclear about is the whole Training Fork Nature Preserve, LLC thing. Was this entity started by climbers? How was the land purchased if so?

See my post upthread for a brief background on the preserve. Also, it's Graining, not Training.

JL

just want to make the point that you don't have to climb hard sport to be a real "rock climber," and you certainly don't have to only have a 5.10c onsight level to be unaware of ethics in the outdoors. i think the problem lies in climbing gyms attracting people to climbing only for its athleticism, and not because they are outdoor enthusiasts that give a shit about where they are climbing. these people need to be educated about how to behave in the outdoors. though how to do so is a challenge.

i am a red river gorge climber, and prefer traditional climbing; however i do enjoy sport. i have been personally appalled at some of the behaviors i have seen at the gorge, and am most saddened by the fact that i actually agree with the land owners.

i really hope that people can shape up down there and behave responsibly, otherwise there are going to be more access issues throughout the gorge. i sure would hate to see muir valley become a poop pile.

also, i agree that climbers should disperse to other ares, but i think its really a behavioral and entitlement problem. not a climbing problem.

saxfiend wrote: See my post upthread for a brief background on the preserve. Also, it's Graining, not Training. JL

Thanks. I cut and pasted the name as it was typed by the person on the Red River climbing site, so it's his typo. As for who put up the money for the land purchase...

Boris Kerzhner wrote:Here is a simple solution: Chop all the bolts on all 10's and below. Chop every other bolt on all 11's. As a result the gymrat will go back to the gym. Such a nice area. If I would be still leaving in Ohio, I would take the permadraws myself. One could never have enough bail binners.

I'm glad someone manned up and said it. If you can't climb at least 5.12 - you shouldn't be climbing. It's like I tell my friends who want to start running with me; "unless you can run a marathon, you shouldn't even try - might as well get back on the couch!"

On the other hand, don't you go free solo at the Roadside Crag. That's against the rules!

Funny, that isn't even banned in Eldorado Canyon. Free soloing is allowed and deaths from failing to do so successfully are not even a talking point for banning it. And that's a State Park.

Stich wrote:Thanks. I cut and pasted the name as it was typed by the person on the Red River climbing site, so it's his typo.

Sorry, I should have made that clear. The OP on the RRGCC forum was full of typos; like you, I tried and failed to find anything on the web about "Training" Fork before I noticed other posts referring to it by the correct name.

Stich wrote:As for who put up the money for the land purchase...

My assumption from reading the information on the owners' website is that they bought it themselves with their own funds.

JL