Tying Cordelette directly through Bolt Hangers?

Maybe this is more common than I think...today I witnessed a group building top rope anchors directly off side-by-side bolts by threading an untied cordelette through the bolt hangers, tying the ends together with a double fisherman's, pulling the loops together, and tying a master point with a figure 8. The only carabiners used were at the master point where they were opposite and opposed. Everything seemed bomber to me except for the decision to tie directly to the bolt hangers. Maybe I'm over analyzing it, but how common/safe is this practice? Is the "sharp" or thin edge of a bolt hanger enough to cause catastrophic failure of a 6-7mm cordelette?

No discussion necessary. This is a really bad idea.

I mean, if they're rap bolts it might--maybe--be safe. Maybe. But it would definitely be a lot safER with carabiners to connect the anchor to the bolts, and there's absolutely no reason not to use another two biners in the anchor system there.

Cordage doesn't really have the same kind of durable sheath you find on actual ropes, not to mention the added possibility of screwing up when constantly re-tying the fisherman's bend. So after 60 seconds of thought I'm downgrading my "maybe kind of safe-ish sort of" rating to "yer gonna die!"

Not common at all. Probably won't fail but it's not good practice. A locker on each hanger or just two draws and no cordelette would be a huge improvement.

Nothing inherently dangerous about doing this other than it wastes a lot of time and would be a lot easier to screw up than just clipping a couple draws.

As far as cut resistance and abrasion resistance in cordage vs climbing rope...it all depends. I would assume that 6mm kevlar cord could take a hell of a lot more abuse than the sheath on my 9.7 sporto rope. My 10.5 aid line has a way burlier sheath than the 20 ft of 7mm cord that I used to carry for trad anchors.

It really depends on what they were building the anchor with and frankly it is no ones business but theirs. If you think it's unsafe then maybe you should move away from them so you don't have to participate in the rescue. Otherwise I'd recommend minding your own business.

Really not that big of a deal. Tope rope loads rarely exceed 600 lbf and that is if you belayer is surfing his iPhone and not paying attention allowing a lot of slack to accumulate. Yes, we are not talking about tensile strength in this situation. We are talking about sharp edge resistance. But, for tr, don't sweat it. Using a caribiner on each hanger would be faster a provide a larger radius for the cord. But, don't loose sleep over this one.

It regards to Yarp's post. There is no need to tell someone to mind their own business in this situation. I have recently made the choice to, from now on, say something (politely, non-intrusively) when I see practices that are not just bad style, but unsafe. I feel that for those who have years of SOLID experience (not years of being a top rope super star, that doesn't count) or extensive climbing education/certifications have a duty to help people from killing themselves because of lack of knowledge. We all had to start somewhere and I bet WE ALL wish someone 30 years wiser than us in the sport would have said "Here, let me show how to do this right. If you ever want to come climbing with me, I ll show a few other tricks to keep you alive!". That would have been nice, but since we are that 30 years wiser guy, let's help out those with outstanding heart and motivation but lacking some technical knowledge, Yarp.
Thanks for reading, and I hope you all consider this.

This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.

i feel like that anchor sounds ok to me. It certaily sounds a heck of a lot safer than a lot of alpine anchors that i have seen. u know the ones with 8 peices of webbing slung around a huge detached block backed up by a micro nut 4 feet away.

Yarp wrote:That's cool Jon. I don't mind if you do that. I hope you don't mind if I tell you to STFU if you start offering me unsolicited advice because you think what I'm doing is "wrong".

I think you meant to be on a different site. Please go there.

Yarp wrote:That's cool Jon. I don't mind if you do that. I hope you don't mind if I tell you to STFU if you start offering me unsolicited advice because you think what I'm doing is "wrong". Most climbers that I know that really have their shit together don't offer advice unless you ask for it. If you do, they are always more than happy to share and I appreciate it. On the other hand the next time I have a dude with his gym pass clipped to his harness tell me my solo aid anchor is upside down I'm going to punch them in the face.

I'm sorry you're upset Yarp. For what it's worth, I didn't open my mouth about it when I was at the crag. Thank you Jon, Greg, and everyone else for your constructive feedback. Yarp, I suggest you find somewhere else online to release your evening rage; it's not warranted, nor helpful here.

Yarp, I hope I see you at the crag someday...I will put you in your place! Take a chill pill and stop trying to be a tough guy. People like you (yarp) give climbers a bad name. Take your STFU attitude to another site,MP doesn't need this type of douchebaggery here!

Ignoring whether you should comment on other parties' practices, I saw a partner do something similar, but somewhat safer the other day.

She took a pre-tied cordelette and threaded it through two bolts. Then took the loops on both ends and pulled through the two loops in the middle to tied an equalized master point with 4 strands of rope.

This is a fast, equalized, no-extension anchor that is redundant, but it had the rope going directly through bolts (not the rap kind). Now there were a total of 4 strands going through the bolts, so all 4 would need to be cut in order for the system to fail. This also did not involve retying the fisherman knot, so it is a much simpler system.

I personally did not like the system, since using 'biners wouldn't have really added much time and is safer, but at the same time I wouldn't freak out about it... in fact, I like the simplicity for when there are rap rings or chains to go through.

How much more dangerous is it than threading webbing through bolts to tie in a rap ring for rapping? Is webbing more resistant to being cut by the sharp edge of a bolt? I've also threaded cord this way to rap when I did not want to leave more gear behind. But in my mind, there is no reason to take this minimalist approach if you aren't bailing, and a TR fall can generate more force than rapping.

So, I too am curious how most people feel about this.

Yarp wrote: Otherwise I'd recommend minding your own business.

Yarp wrote:I hope you don't mind if I tell you to STFU if you start offering me unsolicited advice because you think what I'm doing is "wrong".

Anybody else notice that? Here, take my advise... DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!...

I've done webbing/cord through hangers and nylon to nylon, even both at the same time! But only when rapping. By rapping, I mean busting a rhyme, not leading or top-roping! Seriously, nylon to nylon is really bad, cord through hangers is mostly bad; the latter is ok for rappelling. I concur that it would be good to know about webbing vs. cord in these situations. Links?

And please correct me when you see me doing something wrong. If I know why it's wrong, I'll thank you for saving my life/limb. If I don't know why, then I'll simply ask you about it and learn something! Being offended by someone trying to save your life (even if they don't know what they're talking about) is absurd.

It really depends on what they were building the anchor with and frankly it is no ones business but theirs -- Yarp.

Does this mean I don't have to help clean up the mess if their anchor fails?

Theodor, is it you?

This reminds me of the time I saw a Euro with his two kids at Malibu creek state park setting up a TR. He ran a ragged looking daisy chain through both bolts (sharp bolts) pulled both ends down to make a triangle then clipped the last loop on each side. I said something about it not being safe to which he replied rudely and proceeded to put his 14 and 7 year old daughter on this accident waiting to happen.

Ever since then unless the climbers look real green and receptive to help, or it looks like someone innocently forgot to do something I keep my mouth shut. I just move my gear back so when they splat I don't need to clean my cams.

Webbing and cordage should not be threaded directly through bolt hangers unless they are rap hangers or have quick links on them.
Having said that, I have threaded cord/webbing straight into hangers before for rappelling. It saves gear and works to get you to the ground. Repeated TRing on them though? No way!

If I had my choice on cord or webbing in a situation of abrasion, I'd probably go with cord. Webbing is fine until it gets nicked, which is still not all that bad for this, but would be replacing it for higher load situations.

In any case, why subject any soft material on the hanger when you can just take a couple of draws with lockers and just oppose them for a better quicker TR anchor? Which is also easier to clean, btw.

Overall, the OP is not the best idea, but it is better than TR'ing the rope directly through the hangers. At least they did use biners at the rope to cord interface. I wouldn't make anything of this other than some folks just want to replace their gear faster than others; the rigging is not moving extensively and the hangers aren't knifeblades, typically.

The yer gonna die situation is moving loaded nylon on stationary nylon, if I saw that, then I'd be freaked.

There's no way that retying a double fisherman's every time you build a anchor is faster than clipping two biners, though.

Regarding the Euro guy forming an American death triangle with a daisy chain--isn't this exactly the sort of situation in which we should be a little more insistent than normal? If it's just some guy who won't listen to reason endangering himself, by all means walk away. If he's putting kids at risk though, isn't there a somewhat higher burden on knowledgeable people to try and talk sense into him? Those kids are just trusting their dad.