Is a safety knot on your figure-eight a necessity?

Ryan Williams wrote:Finally found a good picture of this form of bowline. I often use this knot because it's just as easy to untie as a regular bowline but has no chance of coming untied even w/o a stopper know (which I use anyway). Does anyone know what this is called?

Looks like a bowline on a bight. Maybe I am missing something, but I don't believe that that knot will work as a tie in.

I've known that type of bowline as the "party knot." Our gym typically uses that setup with a locking biner to quickly attach and detach climbers in large parties.

Joe there is a method to use the bowline on a bight to tie in... It is WAY more work than it's worth but it does work.

Keith H. North wrote:Joe there is a method to use the bowline on a bight to tie in... It is WAY more work than it's worth but it does work.

The only hard part is making sure you have enough tail. And making sure that your partner can inspect it. Other than that, its just as much work as a figure-8 rethread.

Ryan Williams wrote: Second, how do you know that a half tied figure eight will still hold a fall? Have you fallen on one?

Yes, I have fallen on an unfinished figure 8 after which I spoke to a climber/engineer who confirmed that the knot is just as strong without that last pass through.

JoeP wrote: Looks like a bowline on a bight. Maybe I am missing something, but I don't believe that that knot will work as a tie in.

Well I tie in w/ it all the time so it does work. After all, a figure eight followthrough is no different than a figure eight on a bight... it's the EXACT same knot but can be tied in two different ways.

It doesn't take me any longer to tie this knot that it does to do a good fig 8 follow through or a double bowline.

Ryan, I see that it can be done, just seems like a lot of work is all vs. a double bowline. Rather than using a bight to create the knot, I assume you just thread the entire knot using the end of the rope. Anyway, that was really the extent of my curiosity, whether there was some other way to tie it that I wasn't seeing.

And I get that the knot, whether on a bight or threaded, is the same knot, it just comes down to application.

JoeP wrote: Looks like a bowline on a bight. Maybe I am missing something, but I don't believe that that knot will work as a tie in.

That knot when used as a tie-in is called a re-threaded bowline and it is an excellent knot. It's quick to tie, doesn't tighten excessively with a fall, and is easy to inspect. That's all I use.

JoeP wrote: Looks like a bowline on a bight. Maybe I am missing something, but I don't believe that that knot will work as a tie in.

Used a bowline on a bite as a mid rope rappel anchor last weekend, and, my partner took awhile trying to figure out who to undo it. Pretty funny.

If you're using a bowline as a tie in, keep the rabbit down the hole...

Ryan Williams wrote: This post is riddled with assumptions and mis-information. First of all, tons of people use bowline knots; probably a quarter to a third of the people I witness are tying in w/ some form of the bowline. You are correct though that a safety knot is essential when using a bowline. Second, how do you know that a half tied figure eight will still hold a fall? Have you fallen on one? If you have seen tests that back up your claims then you should cite them. Finally, a safety knot is not "part of how the sport it taught." It is just a requirement at most climbing gyms and climbing gyms seem to be the most common place that people learn to climb these days. If you look at pictures from the last 50 years you'll see a pretty good mix of all sorts of tie in knots, with and without a "safety knot." To the OP... if you tie a figure eight properly and leave two handfuls of slack then it's not coming untied. I usually use the Yosemite finish on a fig 8 because it keeps one strand of rope coming out of the top of the knot, making it easier to grab the rope and clip. I can see how it "intersects the perfect form" of the fig 8 but it won't prevent the knot from closing down and tightening in a fall.

Your rebuttal is the pot calling the kettle black. I guess I should have clarified a little when I stated no one climbs on a bowline- which almost no one does, that I have seen, they climb on double bowlines or bowlines with Yosemite finishes, or some variation of the bowline. I use the double bowline myself quite frequently when sport climbing- easy to untie after a load. I don't have to cite a test or relate anecdotal evidence to support my claim about an unfinished figure-eight still holding a fall- its obvious it will, anyone with a basic understanding of the knot can see that. Anecdotally- I have not fallen on one but I did see an unfinished one successfully execute during a technical tree-felling operation which generated forces exponentially greater than any forces possible in a climbing fall situation- treevolution.co.uk/images/p… (for explanation of forces)
As for the safety knot not being part of how the sport is taught (say that ten times fast), where do you suppose people are learning about the sport? Could be the gym, where the safety knot is taught.

Blake Cash wrote: Actually, a ton of people use a bowline...where do you climb? ...and there's nothing "safe" about tying an overhand above your 8. People tie those things a foot above their knot...I've seen quite a few idiots, while leading, clip the draw in between the 8 and the overhand...totally safe, that knot.

Right, I should have clarified, no one (in my experience) climbs on a basic bowline, they tie a double or use a finishing bend or safety knot of some kind. I climb mainly in CO, other places when I can.

If there is a load put on the tail of a Yosemite finished figure 8 the knot can invert and untie itself. This seems improbable, but it can happen. Check it out if you can.

"Is a safety knot on your figure-eight a necessity?"

Only if you're concerned about passing the belay test at your local climbing gym.

John Wilder wrote: what? this post makes no sense at all.

Seconded.

No.

Realize this is an old post but one of the first that comes up when you google the topic., Last year my figure 8, without safety (or back up) knot, came undone whilst top roping. Tail was 3-4 inches. NOT a great feeling I can say. Was lucky, could climb down. Note that I was resting on the figure 8 in air for at least 10 seconds before it came undone. Also note I am certain the 8 was tied correctly. I know many of you will not believe me but this DiD happen. Learn from my stupidity. Just be safe and tie that safety (or backup) knot. Cheers. 

Sam S wrote:

Also note I am certain the 8 was tied correctly. 

If the 8 was tied correctly and dressed, plus proper amount of tail (I don’t think 3-4 inches is enough; prob fine but I prefer 5-6), this shouldn’t have happened.

Sam S wrote:

I know many of you will not believe me

I believe whatever knot you had came undone but I DON’T believe you tied the fig 8 correctly sorrrrryyyyyyyy

eta: sounds scary, so I’m glad you were able to downclimb safely!

Pics or it didn't happen.

Also, even if the tail of an otherwise properly dressed figure 8 is too short and slips through, the resulting knot is plenty strong for all climbing applications. You downclimbed wisely but needlessly.

Sam S wrote:

Realize this is an old post but one of the first that comes up when you google the topic., Last year my figure 8, without safety (or back up) knot, came undone whilst top roping. Tail was 3-4 inches. NOT a great feeling I can say. Was lucky, could climb down. Note that I was resting on the figure 8 in air for at least 10 seconds before it came undone. Also note I am certain the 8 was tied correctly. I know many of you will not believe me but this DiD happen. Learn from my stupidity. Just be safe and tie that safety (or backup) knot. Cheers. 

Did you clip something into the loop formed by the figure-8, ring loading it?  In ring load the knot will roll until the tail pulls through.  This is a known failure mode of the 8.  This is one reason to keep the loop small; you do not want to allow for it to catch over a horn, carabiner, whatever as you fall, which will produce a large shock and a ring load.

carla rosa wrote:

If the 8 was tied correctly and dressed, plus proper amount of tail (I don’t think 3-4 inches is enough; prob fine but I prefer 5-6), this shouldn’t have happened

Oh great. Another woman that thinks a few more inches is better.