Guides, Lessons and Experienced Friends

Hey All,

I am pretty new to climbing, I started about a year ago and fell head over heals into it. I read both John Long's Anchors book and Freedom of the Hills. I have taken a few outdoor trips as well as my weekly trek into the gym.

I have climbed with friends far more experienced than me and we spent a lot of time discussing anchor set up for top ropes as well as practice setting them up and evaluating their performance.

I was talking to a guide that works at my gym recently and we got on the subject of learning how to set top rope anchors and taking friends out climbing. He basically said that unless you have taken expensive courses taught by trained guides who can work with you and evaluate your technique you are "just being careless" taking friends out climbing.

So here are my questions:
How did you learn to set top rope anchors? Experienced friends? Guide lead classes? A combination of both?

What he said really stuck with me. I know climbing is dangerous and the last thing I want to be is careless with my friends and my own life.

If you are just *talking* to friends about setting up anchors than I would say taking responsibility for taking other friends out and setting up anchors is careless. If you are going out climbing with these more experienced friends and having them analyze anchors that you build, than its likely that you are OK. Guides love to say they are 100% necessary - its how they make their money.

I think guides are a great way to learn the basics oor finer points of the sport quickly, but they are not a necessity. I learned many of the basics from Phil Lauffen on this site and I have yet to kill anyone. There is a process to learning this sport and observation is the first step. Don't try to eliminate it...

My $.02

I learned top-rope anchors by setting gear in vertical cracks close to the ground and testing them by attaching a sling and jumping on them. Then I would build anchors out of the placements and weight the anchor in different directions to see what happened. After building enough of these anchors that I couldn't budge, I started just building the most bomb-proof anchors I could construct and trusting them. Still here! You'll learn a lot from a guide, too. It all depends on what you feel comfortable with. Watch out for soft goods (webbing, slings, rope) running over sharp edges, check, double check, then triple check for redundancy, if you're not sure ask questions from more experienced climbers, while you're climbing check the anchor periodically, and have fun! When you start wanting to learn leading trad, find a mentor you totally trust, or if you can't find that, hire a guide. Good ones are worth it.

Go out with someone who can watch you build an anchor and then evaluate it for you. Of course, hiring a guide is an easy way to do that. If you have a very experienced friend they can do it to. Be careful though, I have met a lot of experienced climbers (who climb a lot and climb hard) that don't know how to build a bomber, redundant anchor.

Thanks everyone for their comments.

@John and Bevans - yes we are not just talking through it or reading about it, but actually setting anchors and having experienced people check them / comment on them and making adjustments as needed. Also setting dummy anchors on a railing or at the base of the crag just to practice. There are some classes I want to take - like learning sport leading from a guide, efficent clipping and falling techniques.

I think it is that I am working hard to not be the guy that gets himself into a bad spot by being careless.

I think if your friends are willing and good at communicating instruction, there is nothing wrong with learning that way. I took lessons from a guide service as I felt it was asking too much for my 5.9/5.10 friends to drop down to 5.4 to teach me. I could not even follow at these grades, so they would have to give up their fun time on the rock for little old me.

I did two separate all day lessons with time in between to practice what I learned in each. I had a great time, and would recommend the guide service I used, Alpine Endeavors, to anyone.

The important thing is that you are taking the necessary steps to learn, not just winging it out there on your own.

When I first started, we just "bumbled" along learning with friends with little to help us other than the internet.

It's a bloody miracle we weren't all killed.

Books and older climbers is the way to go, I never bothered with guides and the like when learning trad or multi-pitch. Even without the guides and instructors, when I got a job putting my climbing skills to use, I was told I was one of the safest people they had hired.

Self-discovery is where the greatest learning occurs.

BOOKS. I cannot stress that enough. Amazon has most John Long and such for only a few dollars used.

There are probably as many ways to learn to climb as there are climbers out there. You're going to have to find your own path through this at times difficult terrain. One of the factors to keep in mind is your own comfort level with taking responsibility for your safety and the safety of those who choose to climb with you. This doesn't go away simply because you have a guides "stamp of approval."

I'm fortunate enough to climb in a fairly large community (@50 really active people)of *mostly* like minded climbers who get together to climb outside on a weekly basis. Like you I did a lot of reading, a lot of observing of their anchors and then eventually they did alot of observing and critiquing my anchors. This was a process that took months and I still sometimes go to some of these climbers if I have specific questions or don't like the look of something.

Many of these climbers have been climbing for decades and several of them hold or are working toward AMGA certs at different levels. I've been climbing regularly for about 18 months now and aside from books everything I've learned has been as a result of being a part of this community. These are the same men and women who are gradually showing me how to trad climb. Its my responsibility to think critically about the other members in this community and determine who I think is super safe and I want to learn from and who's cutting corners or just getting by on athletic ability. Like I said, responsibility.

Before guides there used to be an "apprenticeship" that new climbers would work through that helped address exactly these concerns. Many gyms are now serving in that role with organized classes or people are hiring guides. That's cool but I think there's still a place for people working through this apprenticeship.

To echo what Bevan said though, the climbers getting their AMGA certs are strong climbers who are studying and climbing pretty hard to get their certification. I climb with those guys and gals any chance I get and it can really pay off if you're paying attention. These climbers are pretty stand-up people who do alot for my climbing community so throwing some money their way is definitely a good thing. You'll get alot out of your time with them and it will help support their continued climbing. How fast and how far do you want to go? Guides can definitely speed up the learning curve I think in some regards but I also think they may stunt other parts of yourself as a climber. Taking responsibility for yourself and self-reliance are crucial attributes in the mountains.

You'll find your way,
Wannabe

Joe Virtanen wrote:When I first started, we just "bumbled" along learning with friends with little to help us other than the internet. It's a bloody miracle we weren't all killed. Books and older climbers is the way to go, I never bothered with guides and the like when learning trad or multi-pitch. Even without the guides and instructors, when I got a job putting my climbing skills to use, I was told I was one of the safest people they had hired. Self-discovery is where the greatest learning occurs. BOOKS. I cannot stress that enough. Amazon has most John Long and such for only a few dollars used.

+1 well said! The book you have "Freedom of the Hills" is a great resource too!

Took a 1hr classroom-based anchor course from my college outdoor rec club, read the two John Long anchor books, played with gear in my living room, then did a day building anchors in the field and having an experienced climber critique them (friend, not a guide), then went out and built my own TR anchors to overkill and used them.

A day with a guide could speed things up, but you'll still end up having to re-learn things or parts of things by tinkering until you've done them a few dozen times. The basics are not really a lot of things to learn, nor do they require big skills you can't learn from a book and a buddy.

Careless? Whatever, the anchors I was building when I was at a similar stage of experience to where you are now were WAY overkill because I had a tiny bit of uncertainty stemming from lack of experience, so I'd add the extra piece(s), have redundant everything (doubled biners on pieces, doubled slings). Guy is feeding you a line aimed at boosting his income. As the saying goes, "it ain't rocket surgery".

Did you have a professional driving instructor teach you how to drive a car...or did your mom/dad/brother teach you, then unleash you on the general highway population? Teenage drivers scare me a helluva lot more than a climber who learned gear anchors from a fellow experienced climber

nathanjohnson83 wrote:What he said really stuck with me. I know climbing is dangerous and the last thing I want to be is careless with my friends and my own life.

Back in the early 90s when I started climbing, there were NO guides. My community was still small are we are not near any climbing mecca and there were not an indoor gym yet. so alot of you guys have alot more resource than when I stated out.
So what we did was to get Freedom of the hills (third or fourth addition), and every book we could and read read read. Then on the weeknds my friend and I would go out to the local crag where there was a small ledge and practice making anchors in every conceivable manner we could. We played the what if game and then tore down the anchor and them challenged each other by giving one of us certain quantity of gear and having to make a anchor on only that gear. Then we bounced tested the anchor via rope on the base of the ledge to see if they would hold and we learned hands on through trial and error.

Now after 17 years of climbing I'm proud to say that I have yet to have an anchor fail. I have never dropped a partner and I feel that applying the principals on the ground first really helps when you go vertical. I started with sport first so the principals were pretty easy to grasp, and I had a solid climbing foundation when I took up trad, then ice.

The thing you have to understand is that climbing is dangerous and you can get hurt/killed, and you have to accept that. But by keeping your head about you and thinking everything through check and double check you can make climbing in to a relatively safe sport. The idea is to try eliminate the stupid mistakes that don't have to happen.

Good luck, be safe, and if you feel the knowledge of a guide is what you need than go for it.

thanks again for everyone's comments -

It is interesting to hear the different stories of how people went about gaining the needed skills to climb safely.

What I really need now is experience - getting outside with trusted people (friendly guides or experienced friends) , setting anchors, checking anchors, continuing to talk through "what-ifs" and keep learning.

It needs to stop being Feb and warm up so we can all get out and climb some more.

nathanjohnson83 wrote:thanks again for everyone's comments - It is interesting to hear the different stories of how people went about gaining the needed skills to climb safely. What I really need now is experience - getting outside with trusted people (friendly guides or experienced friends) , setting anchors, checking anchors, continuing to talk through "what-ifs" and keep learning. It needs to stop being Feb and warm up so we can all get out and climb some more.

+1 Same story here. Thanks, Nathan, great thread! Now where is that next Amazon shipment with another of Long's books?

so how i learned to set a top rope long story. cuz im a rambler but oh well

so me and a buddy star by what we called rappelling but what we were actually doing was wrapping a 3/8 in, 250lbs load rope that i got at home depot thru our legs and around the chest. bad idea i know.so that made us want to go up, and well our egos wouldn't let us boulder or go to a gym. no no we have to go get shit and go climb outside.sweet lets go to rei.so we get there 25 min before close and tell the guy in the climbing department we need all the shit to climb outdoors for 200. he kind of chuckled and started handing us shit and giving us a rundown on what is was for and how to do. bam there it is that a some info in a book beginning climbing techniques i think..needless to say 200 was a joke 430 was more like it.. thank you to my climbing partner for that.. it you read this your laughing and know its you..

so thats my story i can only imagine what people are gonna say about this post

Oh boy,

Should I ...................

Ut Oh...........

Oh Crap...........

I can't help myself...............

O.K.........SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Opinions are like we all know just like ass--oles.........

Everyone's got one, and it sounds to me "whomever" you talked to at your gym that said they were a "guide".......isn't really a full time AMGA guide......Maybe he's employed by the gym as a"guide" but I doubt trained over and over by the AMGA......

So like when people post the question, "the sheath on my rope is showing should I replace it, cause ropes are costly".......

Hire a guide for a day, or jump into a TR Anchor class with one of the Front Range guide services.

One of the best is Eli at Climbinglifegudes.

For a couple hundred dollars you will come away with so much practical information, I guarantee that if not by 10 am on your "paid" day by noon you will have forgotten all about the money you plunked down for the course.

You won't be the one fumbling around following your friends and trying to learn from their sloppy beginner anchor set up.

They will be following you and looking up to you and your work and they themselves trying to learn the right way how to safely and efficiently set up anchors.

It's your freakin life at stake, as well as your friends......

My .02 cents.......

If you can afford it a day with a guide is not money wasted. However, no matter what route you take to get your feet off the ground for the first few times; you still need to find a clan that you can hook up with on a regular basis and climb - this takes time. After you find your group and climb for a season or two, then I would recommend branching out and climbing with a bunch of different people. You can learn a lot both in how and how-not-to do stuff climbing with strangers.

Nate,
having climbed with you and knowing your personality I have no worries about you putting any ones safety in jeopardy. That being said a little efficiency goes a long way, and good a guide should have you building safe toprope anchors in 5 min flat by the end of the day. There is a big difference between being safe and being good. I guess what you have to ask your self is if your time at the craig and your peace of mind is worth what a guide charges.

Mike J.
(AMGA SPI Instructor)

Hey Mike, thanks for your reply, and for the role you played in my learning process. I'll be up your way this summer and I hope to see you at the crag!

Jim Amidon wrote:So like when people post the question, "the sheath on my rope is showing should I replace it, cause ropes are costly"

Now THAT'S funny. I gotta remember that one.

For my experience, I just tag along with experienced friends and read a lot (thanks to college physics, a lot of mechanical problems in climbing can be understood quite easily). But practicing in SAFE environment when I am building anchor or placing trad pro and then analyzed by my friends have been the best way to improve my skills. Before I put my weight on the anchor or pro, I will double check to see if the system makes sense and work by anticipating what will happen if I am actually fall on it!

For taking classes, I had that concern when I started too. I thought I need to take all the classes and get a degree or so before I can actually go out and climb. The main problem is that those classes are not cheap at all! So if I am going to take clinic or class, I will do it for the advanced stuff. Some people may disagree with me on this, since the common thinking will be one should seek professional training on the basic stuff and get the basic solid! I guess that is right in general if you don't have friends that are experienced climbers!

Oh but don't get me wrong, if I can get a qualified guide to criticize my climbing practice, that would be fantastic! I really appreciate what most climbing guides do to make sure everyone is safe and have fun!
This is my another $0.02

You can certainly learn it all by yourself, but it is much riskier. Folks who have done it this way are proud of their adventurous spirit and ability to learn from experience. Those who were killed teaching themselves are not around to offer contrary cautions.

Experienced friends are potentially valuable, but not necessarily. There are experienced people who have never learned important fundamentals.

Don't forget that many people learn anchor-building and protection placement by doing it and having others critique it. Those others learned the same way. What's missing is that nobody ever evaluated the set-ups and then tested them to see how reality corresponded to expectations, so the whole process might be little more than the propagation of collective ignorance.

The fact that this situation hasn't produced an continual rash of disasters is testimony to the reliability and versatility of modern gear, even in inexperienced hands, coupled with the fact that events that really test anchors are actually extremely rare.

The advantage to lessons from a certified guide is that they and their supporting organizations have thoroughly thought through what should be taught and how it should be taught. The experience will be structured and comprehensive, two qualities that are likely not to be present in what you get from experienced friends.

Is it "careless" do without the best information you can get? Perhaps. The fact of the matter is that beginners have to embrace the risks associated with not being expert, so are open on multiple levels to the accusation of carelessness.

My recommendation, as a climber with 54 years of experience and a few years of guiding, is that since risks are involved, you should get all the information you can. Take a course from a certified guide, learn everything you can from books and experienced climbers, think about it and practice it and find ways to test your anchor-building safely. And when you sally forth, recognize that the best way to survive the early years is by overbuilding your anchors and arranging redundant protection, because some of what you do ain't gonna be up to snuff no matter what.