Cops in Indian Creek

Cor wrote: The cops snooping around the camp site is like entrapment! if they are polite, and talking with people/hanging with people, walking the beat....well i guess that is ok, and there is nothing people can do.... if they are snooping around, just really looking to bust people for nothing, than that is soooo wrong....

So the cops should wait until something bad has happened and for someone to call the cops? Instead of perhaps stopping the problem in progress? That is called being reactive, instead of proactive.

AOSR wrote:maybe brent WAS the cop patrolling around the campsites...???

Not yet AOSR ;)

Brent Butcher wrote: So the cops should wait until something bad has happened and for someone to call the cops? Instead of perhaps stopping the problem in progress? That is called being reactive, instead of proactive.

Two things. First, the role of the police is inherently reactionary, as the role of police is to investigate and to enforce laws. A law cannot be enforced until there is an offense.

Second, having police patrol campgrounds (assuming the purpose is to enforce victimless drug laws and not to investigate a serious crime) is a colossal waste of public resources.

The Larry wrote: No, he's just the one that will narc on you when the cops come around. It's the Brents out there that you gotta watch out for.

The Larry nailed it.

Well obviously everyone has their opinions about the sacred herb. Just be careful in the Creek, alls I was saying. Hopefully it won't be as bad as it is in Mosquito Cove campground just outside of Zion, where cops spy on campers and then swoop in and arrest. From what I've heard its a $1,000 plus fine and a trip over to the neighborhood jail, and even probation/piss tests.

Please be respectful of everyone's opinions ya'll. More climbers than not partake, but some like Brent may not.

I agree w/Sam maybe not the best idea to post a bunch of stories about getting in trouble on public land.

Lastly, what we're seeing in Utah is what a friend of mine referred to as a culture war. Pot is now medically legal in most of the states surrounding Utah, but a highly illegal substance in that state. I think eventually it will be legalized across the United States, just as prohibition for alcohol did not work.

Bottom line: know the laws and don't give probable cause.

peace,
Cliff

Brent,

1. police should serve and protect the community.
this does not mean entrapment of people.
example - you can not pull over a person that looks
mexican, just because you want to see there papers...
they have to break the law first.

2. is there a problem at these camping areas that is ongoing,
and warranting a foot patrol? instead of in the busy town
where they are probably needed?

the way these posts were made in the begining of this thread leads me to believe the cops were snooping around, and not being friendly with people...
that in it self is a red flag to me. cops (not the good ones)
are well known throughout the united states of merica (with an M)
to abuse power, profile people unlawfully, etc, etc. I wonder if this
is the type of thing that is starting to happen at the creek...
I also know of many people from colorado who were pulled over for no
real reason, harassed... profiled...illegally searched...etc...

and what is this reactive/proactive thing? maybe we should go to war with more countries, it is the proactive thing to do... they may do something wrong in the future! Don't the cops have to worry about all the morman mothers in town on meth, instead of the campers, that are far from town? I can see a (1) BLM cop coming through from time to time, but not regular cops.. that seems like they are over doing it just a little.

question to all: when is the last time you went camping and had the
sheriffs coming through camp the last two weekends?
in my 20 years of climbing, never...

I've been going to the Creek since 1995. Police coming into the canyon checking out the climber scene is a relatively "new" phenominon. Last year, while driving thru Monticello from Durango around midnight, a State Patrol stopped my buddy and I just north of the light. We weren't speeding, and had not committed any infractions. He simply wanted to check out us and was polite enough to say so. "Looking for drunks an drug addicts" was his remark. After a very polite and informative discussion, he then proceeded to inform us that there were infact police in the Creek and that there maybe undercovers as well. Go figure...he'd tell us that. After a week of climbing, we were approached by a pretty suspicious and easily identifiable undercover NARC who had busted a group of unfortunate Canadians a few days earlier. A couple of climbers pointed him out directly to his face and he walked off. He looked no older than 23. I agree with a few of the comments posted...to each is own, do what you feel is your way to be at peace in this incredible valley, and always know that your actions (good & bad) affect all those who come after you.

Cliff Cash wrote: More climbers than not partake, but some like Brent may not.

I beg to differ. I'd say the # of climbers "partaking" is about the same as non-climbers, when you normalize for income, marital status, race, religion, age, etc...

I also object to categorizing the 'non partakers' into Brent's type, if that was your intent.

It's just as easy to pot-smokers into a bin (IE drug users in general, or worse yet, self-sanctified, preaching, petuli-wearing, stinky-hippy, no-job-having, nonesense-talking, boob-tube watching, vegan-cheezy-poof munchers) as it is to call non-smokers straight edge conservatives.

I think the stuff should be legal, but I also think that people who smoke it while climbing (not that all smokers do) are exhibiting extremely bad judgement, and I and all the climbers I climb with stay away from that. I've been dropped by a climber once in my life. F%#$ing stoner that he was.

Cor wrote: The cops snooping around the camp site is like entrapment!

I'm curious - how is this like entrapment?

Brent Butcher wrote:If you aren't doing anything illegal you should have nothing to worry about. Personally, I am glad cops go out to any popular place and tell people to quit smoking weed. I hate it when I am at a crag and people a few yards away from me light up a bowl. It ruins my trip, go light a bowl up with all your friends in your house, not the crag or campground. My climbing partners and I do not appreciate as well as the families around us. These are probably the climbers that leave tape on the ground and their cigarette butts.

What bums me out is self righteous assholes who put their moral judgements on me and others yet expect people to listen to their whack opionions based on dogma and popular political sentiment. What if I said you are ugly and it bumms me out, or your daughter is so stupid it bums me out, or you climb like shit and it bumms me out? All are personal opionions and all true, and believe it or not, all of these things bum me out and ruin my trip. Guess what, I hope to bum you out with my "child repellent" and retake the crags from the whiny families/punters who so oftentimes have ruined my trip.

Brent Butcher wrote:If you aren't doing anything illegal you should have nothing to worry about. Personally, I am glad cops go out to any popular place and tell people to quit smoking weed. I hate it when I am at a crag and people a few yards away from me light up a bowl. It ruins my trip, go light a bowl up with all your friends in your house, not the crag or campground. My climbing partners and I do not appreciate as well as the families around us. These are probably the climbers that leave tape on the ground and their cigarette butts.

Dude!! the Creek has always been the place smoke bowls, drive back to camp with a PBR, or pass the sauce around before a climb. As long as youre being safe - no harm no foul.

Personally, it ruins my day when preaching D-bags show up at the crag and try to regulate on everyone,especially if my party was there first. Lighten up and keep to yourself if youre so bothered or go some where else.

But seriously, Cops in the creek? It can only mean the end of an era.

Tony B wrote: I beg to differ. I'd say the # of climbers "partaking" is about the same as non-climbers, when you normalize for income, marital status, race, religion, age, etc... I also object to categorizing the 'non partakers' into Brent's type, if that was your intent. It's just as easy to pot-smokers into a bin (IE drug users in general, or worse yet, self-sanctified, preaching, petuli-wearing, stinky-hippy, no-job-having, nonesense-talking, boob-tube watching, vegan-cheezy-poof munchers) as it is to call non-smokers straight edge conservatives. I think the stuff should be legal, but I also think that people who smoke it while climbing (not that all smokers do) are exhibiting extremely bad judgement, and I and all the climbers I climb with stay away from that. I've been dropped by a climber once in my life. F%#$ing stoner that he was.

x2

CalmAdrenaline wrote:Cops blow, no two ways around it.

Aren't you the bolt police?

Joe Cappiello wrote: Personally, it ruins my day when preaching D-bags show up at the crag and try to regulate on everyone,especially if my party was there first. Lighten up and keep to yourself if youre so bothered or go some where else.

So if the non-smoker is there first and doesn't like the smoke, be it weed or tobacco, you have to put it out and leave it out, or go somewhere else rather than subject them to something that they don't like?
Just trying to check the consistency of your logic.
I'm allergic to smoke and don't like getting a coughing fit while racking up, let alone cruxing, so I'm curious. Because saying something stupid seems less intrusive than exposing someone to smoke.

I'm always pleased to keep my 'offensive' opinions about smoking out of anyone's hearing, so long as their 'offensive' smoke is out of my smell. This seems fair to me. What do you say?

Years ago on a Sunday night, around dusk, we were headed out of the Creek back to Moab. A few miles east of Newspaper Rock, after the curves, the speed limit is 50 mph. My buddy was going 65. $50 speeding ticket. Officer smelled beer, searched the vehicle, the four of us each had open beers - $100 ticket per offense. The officer said they routinely speed trap that road around dusk.

Wally

Cor wrote:The Cops snooping around the camp site is like entrapment!

Cor wrote:this does not mean entrapment of people.

austin,

i said "is like" not "is"

but seriously, cops at camp is fine, but if they are being sly-snoopy-undercover-etc... it seems wrong. they are obviously only out there to cause trouble with basically law following individuals. the cops are supposed to be part of the community, not separate. so if they are snooping around, for a person smoking dope at camp, or the rocks seems excessive. what about snooping around looking for that evil dope dealer? he is the guy causing the problem, the users are just result that need counseling, not fines + jail time.

also, why do we need the sheriff at camp, is he not needed in town? is that not what the blm guy hired is for? if they are snooping around, it is wrong, that is my opinion... just like if a cop was undercover, hanging out busting people for j-walking. wouldn't you think that was excessive? maybe using his/her powers excessively?

I personally don't like the idea of cops out there, but it did just occur to me that there were a string of thefts, whereas someone drove off with backpacks, stoves, etc... in the last few years.
The crimes attract cops sometimes, who try to make a presence seen... and then pay for it with tickets where ever they go.
This may or may not be related. I guess if I saw a cop out there I'd just plain ask him/her to what I owe the noted increase in presence.
I do some volunteer work that brings me into somewhat frequent contact with cops on public land, many of whom are looking for 'trouble' of whatever sort they themselves see fit, and many of whom are after what they are ordered to go after. I've had the opportunity to interface with 4 different LE agencies. They are not all the same, and not all entirely reasonable/unreasonable.
And yes, I've seen them using night vision googles to look through tent-walls. They claimed that they were using them to look at EL-wire stuff, but that's just plain stupid and I asked them if they seriously expected me to believe that. I told them that it almost appeared to me that they were using them to look through tent wall, which much like curtains, provided a constitutionally protected expectation of privacy... which according to the supreme court (the a recent case) was unacceptable without a warrant. One key bit of admitted evidence in that case, as I mentioned was that they could watch people having sex with them right through tent walls or curtains, and was therefore extremely and unjustifiably intrusive.

I stopped a few words short of asking them if they were intentionally violating federal law and jurisprudence or if they were just perverts that I should call the real cops on...

Instead I took a few steps back and radioed them in directly... they "moved on" and I never heard what happened to them. Odds are, nothing. But I didn't see them out again that night with the night vision stuff again either.

Some of that antecdote might be useful to anyone who gets their civil liberties violated, but it isn't legal advice. Cops make shit up when they want to, just like anyone else. Expect that in court.

Cor wrote:austin, i said "is like" not "is" but seriously, cops at camp is fine, but if they are being sly-snoopy-undercover-etc... it seems wrong. they are obviously only out there to cause trouble with basically law following individuals. the cops are supposed to be part of the community, not separate. so if they are snooping around, for a person smoking dope at camp, or the rocks seems excessive. what about snooping around looking for that evil dope dealer? he is the guy causing the problem, the users are just result that need counseling, not fines + jail time.

Basically law following individuals? Possession and use of a controlled substance is illegal and it's punishible with a minimum sentence of 6 months and a $1000 fine in it's most minimal instance. Whether you like it or not that is the law and it's the law that is in place by the state in which we are talking about.

It may be widely accepted in the climbing community as an acceptable recreational drug, but the fact is is that it's illegal. And if the police are "snooping" around camp and catch someone from out of state that picked their weed up from some guy on the street corner, for them that could lead to a larger bust of someone who is much less than a law abiding individual. It works the same was as a traffic stop for a tail light out. If you get pulled over for having a light out the officer isn't really that concerned with that infraction as he is looking for suspicious body language, open containers, or the smell of marijuana permeating from the car that could lead to a larger bust eventually.

Whether or not you like it isn't really a concern for the police. Their concern is enforcing the law and if they know that climber campgrounds are hot beds for marijuana possession and use then it makes sense that they might patrol those areas in hopes that a bust there might give them information to a larger bust.

FWIW, here's the breakdown of penalties concerning marijuana possession and sale in Utah

Possession
Less than 1 oz misdemeanor 6 months $1,000
1 oz to 1 lb misdemeanor 1 year $2,500
1 to 100 lbs felony 5 years $5,000
More than 100 lbs felony 1 - 15 years $10,000

Sale
Any amount felony 5 years $5,000
In the presence of a minor or within 1,000 feet of a school or other specified areas felony increased penalty increased penalty

Miscellaneous (paraphernalia, license suspensions, drug tax stamps, etc...)
Paraphernalia possession misdemeanor 6 months $1,000
Paraphernalia sale misdemeanor 1 year $2,500
Paraphernalia sale to a minor felony 5 years $5,000

Price wrote: Aren't you the bolt police?

Only when it comes to certain individuals making poor decisions based on self interest and a total disregard to the opinions of the vast majority of the climbing community.

damn Troll.