Sometimes it's OK to sew it up.

Holy crap, Kurt! I haven't seen you since high school but it looks like you've been having a good time ha. Glad you're okay dude!

JLP wrote:... He admits the piece that held him wasn't well placed. ...

That's not how I took what he said, to me, sounds like that is how he found the cam AFTER the fall. Not saying he placed it only on 2 lobes...

Kurt Ross wrote:I don't mind the dissections a bit. I'm still trying to figure out everything that contributed to the failure. Every one of the pieces that failed were correctly sized to the crack. Perhaps the scariest part is that I expected them all to be bomber. In the future I'll place them deeper, but they could't have gone in too much more before being at the trigger. I predict that the smooth lobes on all of the cams that pulled made quite a bit of difference on that sandy sand stone. This is just speculative though. The C4 was indeed under-cammed, which is why I placed those... bomber cams above it so close together. I learned a lot from this close call. Ryan, I'll try not to fall next time.

This is one of the best responses to critique I've ever seen online. Good on ya.

Seems like the vast majority of climbing (near) accidents result from a combination of mistake and bad luck/bad timing. We all make mistakes at times. Fortunately, we often get away with it because we were lucky enough to make the mistake when it didn't matter.

Seems like you had a bit of everything...bad luck with the 'biner that unclipped itself combined, perhaps, with misjudgment regarding the placements or how dry the rock was. I don't know but it's good to see that you lowered away from this one with nothing but a great story and a learning experience.

Wehling wrote: ...sounds like that is how he found the cam AFTER the fall. Not saying he placed it only on 2 lobes...

It was placed on all four lobes but it was fairly under-cammed which is why it changed position and bent the trigger wire. Phil is the one who cleaned the gear so he might enlighten us further on how it ended up. What I said in the video was just what I understood from him.

Crag Dweller wrote:it's good to see that you lowered away from this one with nothing but a great story and a learning experience.

...and a rad video

Kurt Ross wrote: ...and a rad video

It's worthy of a major climbing video tour!

Kurt Ross wrote: It was placed on all four lobes but it was fairly under-cammed which why it changed position and bent the trigger wire . Phil is the one who cleaned the gear so he might enlighten us further on how it ended up. What I said in the video was just what I understood from him.

I'm sorry, I missed that part. Either way, like everyone has said, I'm glad you are ok!

The way rock dust flew as each piece popped would indicate to me the rock was dry. How do you determine if the rock is dry by looking at the rock or is that not possible? How much rain does it take?

Good thing you had a helmet on! Because if you didn't...there would be four pages of bickering about you not having a helmet :)

we say it takes more than a day for wet sandstone to dry here in red rock... many of us won't hit the canyon routes for a week after a good rain. don't forget about the sun's inability to penetrate rock INSIDE of a crack, i'm sure the south facing wall was nice and dry BUT the cams were technically on east/west facing walls weren't they? something to consider...

all in all, glad you're ok!

jon

Jon O'Brien wrote:we say it takes more than a day for wet sandstone to dry here in red rock... many of us won't hit the canyon routes for a week after a good rain.

I was under the impression that was so you didn't break off holds. I'm sure it decreases the friction but doesn't necessarily make it so you can't place sound gear. I know plenty of people who have climbed on the softer Windgate sandstone in Indian Creek while it was raining. The usual argument is 'There aren't any holds to break'.

caughtinside wrote: Yes, but if it's raining, and the water is running down from the top, that water is running down the cracks.

Your grasp of the physical sciences is nothing short of amazing, though I have no idea what your point is.

The point is that there are holds to break. When saturated the binder that holds all the sand grains together is weaker so it speeds up erosion. Basically tiny bits are breaking off, tiny parts of holds are breaking off. You might not notice it after one climb but for those of us who don't want Incredible Hand Crack to turn into Incredible Fist Crack we don't climb in the rain, after a rain, or when the rock may be moist.

It does make the gear less sound. If the sand grains break apart more easily then that cam is going to track out of the crack more easily because it can't bite into something if the medium is crumbling.

I don't necessarily think dust from the rock breaking means it was dry inside. That could just be dust from the face or parts that were dry while other parts were still wet. Good rule of thumb is if you can find moisture (non-permanent) then don't climb. That may mean feeling the sand in a pocket or sticking your hand down in the sand but probably better to err on the conservative side rather than messing up a nice climb.

jmeizis wrote:The point is that there are holds to break. When saturated the binder that holds all the sand grains together is weaker so it speeds up erosion. Basically tiny bits are breaking off, tiny parts of holds are breaking off. You might not notice it after one climb but for those of us who don't want Incredible Hand Crack to turn into Incredible Fist Crack we don't climb in the rain, after a rain, or when the rock may be moist. It does make the gear less sound. If the sand grains break apart more easily then that cam is going to track out of the crack more easily because it can't bite into something if the medium is crumbling. I don't necessarily think dust from the rock breaking means it was dry inside. That could just be dust from the face or parts that were dry while other parts were still wet. Good rule of thumb is if you can find moisture (non-permanent) then don't climb. That may mean feeling the sand in a pocket or sticking your hand down in the sand but probably better to err on the conservative side rather than messing up a nice climb.

If you're going to spend so much time trying to dismantle my post please try to get at least one element of it correct.

Kurt Ross wrote: ...and a rad video

Sick! You came within inches of breaking both your legs! Awesome! Hey everyone, look at me! I climbed at the Creek after it rained all day and almost died! Look at my RAD video! SICK BRO!

Ryan Kelly wrote: If you're going to spend so much time trying to dismantle my post please try to get at least one element of it correct.

Ryan Kelly wrote: I was under the impression that was so you didn't break off holds. I'm sure it decreases the friction but doesn't necessarily make it so you can't place sound gear. I know plenty of people who have climbed on the softer Windgate sandstone in Indian Creek while it was raining. The usual argument is 'There aren't any holds to break'.

So you weren't arguing that gear is fairly sound in wet sandstone and that jams (holds) don't get larger when people climb on wet sandstone?

jmeizis wrote: So you weren't arguing that gear is fairly sound in wet sandstone and that jams (holds) don't get larger when people climb on wet sandstone?

Your reading comprehension is terrible. No, I wasn't. See the part where I talked about it decreasing the friction? It's an easy argument that that would make it less "sound", to continue with the terms we're using. I said that you can still place sound gear, and I know you can to some degree purely off of empirical evidence. You can spare me the internet certified engineering analysis.

Don't tailor your stance by confusing 'holds' with 'jams', that's a pathetic use of semantics. If you want to play that game, then sure, I'll stick with my original argument - rain doesn't cause jams to break.

I never said that climbing in the rain isn't going to increase erosion. I made a simple statement comparing the ethics that I've heard from Red Rock climbers and Creek climbers. I didn't even make a statement of whether or not I condoned it, you made that assumption. But you're certainly not going to convince me of much of anything with a post full of false accusations and unsympathetic examples. Destroying Incredible Hand Crack? HAH! Yeah, that I support. You know what else widens IHC? The hordes of taped up gumbies that line up every weekend to thrash their way up it. I can't wait until that thing turns into a fist crack. The sooner the better.

Ryan Kelly wrote: Your reading comprehension is terrible. No, I wasn't.

Maybe it's your writing ability that is terrible.

BASE1361 wrote:Jesus...People need to control themselves. But they don't. Climbing right after it rains to pooping at the base...

Are you sure you're not confusing lack of respect for lack of knowledge? I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of people you see climbing too soon after rain are simply ignorant of the valid reasons not to do so.

-sp wrote: Are you sure you're not confusing lack of respect for lack of knowledge? I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of people you see climbing too soon after rain are simply ignorant of the valid reasons not to do so.

This falls into the category of things that people may not know, but should know. Do you know if that sling you found is any good? Maybe. But should you use it? No.

Andy Novak wrote: Sick! You came within inches of breaking both your legs! Awesome! Hey everyone, look at me! I climbed at the Creek after it rained all day and almost died! Look at my RAD video! SICK BRO!

SICK BRO! You totally took everything way out of context! RAD! Nice reading comprehension!