New Mexico rock modification discussion

If there are holes in my argument then so be it. I will think it over and get back to you. But while you are getting uppity let us look at your hole. (haha)

"And why is there so much glue in this state if the rock is really not that loose and in need of it?"

The Temple: because the climbing was no longer challenging. The glue was never a reinforcement, it was a filler. There are good solid holds underneath the bondo.

Big Block: again, only a small portion of the glue was for stability.

U-mound: Most of the glue that is left after someone took a hammer to it was much the same, Timy had made hilti holds. He made a "sit" start to Jito as well as the lines at the lower mound. There were a few holds truly just "protected" and probably not by Timy, I think, because it is not sika or hilti.

Crystal Cave: Because a few guys decided no amount of glue was over the top to make this crappy roof a mecca of cave climbing? Because they need to conquer every choss pile? And totally disregard local cultural significance. But the rock is true shit! So one for you.

Diablo: Timy filled in the holds of Tweak Fuck to make it harder.

The Bat Cave?: I have not been there but what some of the developers (including Tim) have told me is: The rock is really good outside of the cave and even for a good portion of the cave but, you know, there are these sections.....not to mention a Gluefa!

Dirt Wall: Same as above. All the lines were old and established and not hard enough so holds were filled and new lines created.

Spook: Because Timy told me the lines wouldn't go without a lot of reinforcement and I was young and half retarded so I believed him.

You see Antag, it rarely has to do with the quality of the rock.

The right and wrong thing is kinda like grade school, right? I asked my ten year old niece and her friends, while out bouldering, if your having trouble finding a way to the top why not just create a way? They all stated that would be cheating. Simple for them because kids are used to playing games and setting acceptable rules to new games. Everyone plays along and....no problems. By your argument, cleaning rocks is the same as chipping or gluing which then leads to me saying then chipping and gluing are the same as graffiti. Right? Is graffiti ok with you? Defacing public property? Is there just an opinion about this one? You see Antag, I can and have climbed many rocks without cleaning them or cutting any brush. Hell, the problems I put up before meeting the ABQ crews I didn't even use a tooth brush (Fairbanks routes are kinda adventures) To me this is the fundamental reason why I cannot see your comparison holding up.

thomas ellis wrote: Hell, the problems I put up before meeting the ABQ crews I didn't even use a tooth brush

It is true. Before meeting cultured climbers from Abq, Tom did not use a toothbrush and was being raised by wolves. His manners have suffered ever since.

I should check the ranks of sophomore philosophy students at UNM to see if anybody is registered as Antagonist.

I don't have enough time to chime in with much, but it has been nice to hear from people across different generations.

W

"As for removal of rock, can you honestly say that you have never forcibly removed rock on a climb thereby making the climb easier or harder?"

Haha. You don't know me for shit do you? No Antag, I don't practice making things harder or easier. I think it is fair to say that William and I only remove rock if it is loose and or dangerous. We clean and climb all grades and with all the rock we encounter never worry about if it is hard or not. But you give clues as to where your mind frame and opinion is built.
William probably would have climbed v10 by now if he would just start selectively cleaning all of his lines. But different stroke for different strokes....

"FYI, I never have never said that any chipping is ok with me so please drop that attack. It is just further confusing this argument we are exploring which is actually becoming much more coherent by the day."

I was not aware I had recently called you a chipper or implied you were condoning it. My bad or your bad? Who Bad?

PS: for the folks who climb fake routes but bad mouth them, call em chypocrite. Goes with yesterdays tit thing......

Yeah George I was only responding to glue not to chipping as that was the current argument in front of me. Not to mention I think most average intelligent adults can see the motivation behind chipping. It is simply to change the path. To make it easier or harder. Generally to make things easier.(Easy being relative to the chipper)
But you are correct that my list is far from complete but most of the motives are the same.

Parkside: great rock but not enough holds. So holds were created with glue.

Eerie: Not enough holds on super bullet limestone. Plus the holds were sharp.

Child of the Light: Poor rock but also the holds were built out to make them more "functional"

Tramway boulders: The rock was sharp so glue made them comfortable just like at the Mound.

Enjoy glued routes folks, just don't get to thinking it is always because the rock is fragile. When that is the case and the glue is hard to detect I actually don't have too much of a problem with it. Do I seek out these routes? No. Do I climb them? Rarely if ever. The summary: the spackle trowel job done on these crags is over the top, too ugly and not necessary. I think.

"It's just the one "climb" at Diablo, right? The other 100+ are natural aside from cleaning loose rock I think?"

You tell me. I have only been there a few times in the last six years.

You all are way too nice to eachother in this thread. What are we degenerating into? Humans? Let's get back to our roots.

I guess I will just pack up my Trolley and find some new friends if no one wants to fight.

Anti chippers unite!

Mark, Glueing & chipping was NEVER accepted at U-Mound by any locals I've known, except for the ones who engaged in it. Not sure exactly what crew gave that "approval" but I've heard more than a few old and new guard piss and moan over those botch jobs while threatening various actions with hammers against flesh. It's always nice to climb in a vacumn where we can justify our actions based on our perception of reality. Unfortunately, reality seems to have a way such that if you build your own posse and call that the local crew, it's pretty easy to get the feedback you want. If you actually take the time to determine who the local populace is actually made up of, and not just the current generation, but back to the original guys (you can probably still find David up there hiking every Sunday on the La Luz) then it might be surprising how the polling numbers change.

thomas ellis wrote: Dirt Wall: Same as above. All the lines were old and established and not hard enough so holds were filled and new lines created.

Hi Tom,

Please expand on this statement on Dirt Wall as this hasn't been what I have seen at all, but I wasn't there prior to the wall being bolted. I've climbed nearly every route on Dirt Wall with the exception of Coven and it's various linkups and haven't seen much evidence of this. Are you stating that someone had climbed the hard lines on Dirt Wall prior to Timy establishing what is now, The Deputy, Sinister Dane, Coven, and Insider Trading". The only one I've seen any possibility of holds being filled in to increase the difficulty is Insider Trading, and I believe Timy put the bolts in on that.

If your refering to what use to be John Duran's old line that the guideook warned had unsafe bolts, that Timy rebolted or retrobolted to put up what is now Duran Duran and Duran's Pharmacy, these lines don't have any glue or chipped holds that I noticed.

I agree that much of the glue on Dirt Wall is heavy handed but for all the talk of Dirt Wall being entirely glue by my count only 7 of the ~18 lines have any glue on them, but I wasn't going out of my way to look for glue. Also imo the routes with glue on them I enjoyed more than the ones without glue on them. I'm not a big fan of flexing flakes that feel like they are going to break when I pull on them, upper part of Red Tag Sale for instance. So in this case I've got no issues with the glued holds.

As far as Crystal Cave goes it's definitly choss (I've got a chunk of Faith sitting on my bookshelf) but I've had many a great day climbing there. So props to the developers who put the hard work into the area. What was the local cultural significance? Seems to have been grafitti, fires, and drinking in my expierence, but I was never there prior to it being bolted. Also I haven't seen any glue on Leper, Faith, Soul Crusher, Minutia, or Botox. Dope has two holds at the beginning that are re-inforced and Rosebudd has some glue.

Just trying to keep things factual.

Edit: After climbing here again and looking for glue, the start of Minutia has some glue, along with glued holds on the bouldering holds. Also there are 4 or 5 glued holds on the upper 1/2 of dope.

"7 of the ~18 lines have any glue on them"

That sounds like close to half. Is that a small amount to you? Most of those routes had bolted long ago and climbed as is. Should I go up and make sure they are exactly the same? No. With glue on the holds how could they be. But if I am wrong on this one then I am sorry. But I doubt it as it is not the usual practice.

"Dope has two holds at the beginning that are re-inforced and Rosebudd has some glue"

My understanding (from a close friend who warned me not to go so that I wouldn't stir shit up) is that "Dope"(think about the name for a minute) has over 5 gallons of glue. Probably an exaggeration but you get the idea.

"the routes with glue on them I enjoyed more than the ones without glue on them"

It sounds to me like you are better suited for gym climbing. Not meant as an insult, more of an observation. Stay in the gym. Holds are comfy and you can go shirtless in the winter!

My understanding is that the Crystal Cave is historically significant to the people of Jemez Pueblo. But what do I know. I am a gringo from California.

"7 of the ~18 lines have any glue on them" That sounds like close to half. Is that a small amount to you? Most of those routes had bolted long ago and climbed as is. Should I go up and make sure they are exactly the same? No. With glue on the holds how could they be. But if I am wrong on this one then I am sorry. But I doubt it as it is not the usual practice. quote>

The part I am questioning is that most of these routes had been bolted long ago and climbed as is: I disagree as far as I know all the routes with glue on them, the glue was put there by the FA, not later.
Almost Blue FA Jean D, No Glue
The Deputy FA Timy, Glue
Sinister Dane FA Timy, Glue
Full Penetration FA Timy, Glue
Coven / Consumer Syndrome, FA Timy, Glue
Insider Trading, FA Timy, Glue
Window Shopping, FA ??? Glue
To High for Bry FA Timy / Bryan, No Glue
Red Tag Sale FA???, No Glue
Dreadlock Holiday, FA ???, No Glue
Spreadlock Holiday FA Timy, No Glue
You Can't Do It Glue It FA???, No Glue
Duran's Pharmacy FA John Duran Later Timy, No Glue
Duran Duran FA John Duran Later Timy, No Glue
Bob Marley Meets Master Ganj FA Lorne Rainey???, Glue
Unknown Lance Route FA Lance, No Glue
Buttercup FA Timy, No Glue
Little Caterpillar FA Timy, No Glue
New Kids on the Block FA ????, Glue

No Retro-gluing that I can see. All the routes that have glue the first ascent put it there.

As far as Dope goes, I've been on the upper 1/2 many times with all the linkups and never saw any glue. The only part I ever saw glue on was two holds on the bottom 1/2.

The great part about NM is I can climb shirtless outdoors nearly every day of the year!

As far as gym climbing goes, too bad like yourself I can't get psyched for created routes. I've climbed a few that were chipped top to bottom and thought it was a waste of time and like climbing in a gym. I however have no problem with routes where glue re-inforces holds, where it fits the local ethic and is legal or at least accepted. This is what I feel Dirt Wall and most of crystal cave are, that's why I decided to post to this trainwreck.

Once again, just trying to keep things factual, and maybe learn some of the history of these areas in the process.

Slight thread drift.
Re: Crystal Cave being "historically significant to the people of Jemez Pueblo."
This is true. More than that, this cave has nationally been known to archaeologists since the 1930's as "Jemez Cave." Archaeological excavations in the cave discovered some of the oldest cobs of maize in the US, dated to ca. 500-880 BCE. Use of the cave by native people continued up through the recent historic period. For those reasons, the cave is on the list of NM Registered Cultural Properties, and is on the National Register of Historic Places. Go Google "Jemez Cave" yourself.
Frankly, I'm personally surprised the USFS hasn't closed it off. Not that I think that would be the best course of action, but seeing as how the cave has been so heavily impacted by so many different user-groups (beer drinkers, taggers, sport climbers), a closure would be understandable from the USFS point of view.

djkyote wrote:A discussion with the USFS, Jemez district has already ocurred. Conclusion: fixed anchors are permitted in the Jemez; there are 30+ fixed anchors in the crystal cave.

Hmm, maybe; not sure. By 'discussion,' do you reference the series of meetings from 2009, mentioned here:
Public input needed on potential changes in recreation management along the East Fork Jemez Wild and Scenic River ?
Because that only concerned the East Fork Jemez WSR, which doesn't include the Soda Dam area (but does include Las Conchas and UEF).

Like I said in my first post, this is off topic. My first post was providing facts about the cave, which seemed relevant to answer some questions in posts prior to mine. And then I expressed a personal opinion re: the cave's heavy use. I do not wish to be further involved in this discussion.

If anyone has more specific information about a climbing agreement with the USFS re: the cave, post it up, if people ask for it. Otherwise, if you want to learn more, I recommend you contact the Santa Fe Forest archeologist for more facts.

My uninformed non-archeological probably wrong opinion is that any cultural significance to me was mostly erased when the excavation occurred in 30's. I've heard that the base layer of the cave is significantly lower today than it originally was, this makes sense given the graffiti that would take a step ladder today, and that you actually walk down into the cave from the dig tailings.

My guess is that the USFS allows climbing there because there is nothing left to impact, as all artifacts have been removed. So to me Crystal Cave isn't on par with an area like the Gila Cliff Dwellings. It is cool to know that someone once lived there.

Disturbing:
I suspect there's truth to your analysis. However, the one thing to consider is that what little I know about Archeo techniques from friends is that it's a changing field with techno advances. So it's possible the area could see another excavation.

Thanks Chris for posting the info. Like others, I enjoy knowing the history of our climbing areas.

"I however have no problem with routes where glue re-inforces holds, where it fits the local ethic and is legal or at least accepted. This is what I feel Dirt Wall and most of crystal cave are"

In a way this is correct, but in another way it is not entirely accurate with regards to Dirt Wall. I was a "local" box climber during the time Timmy did his (first round of )work on Dirt Wall and I was one of at least three people who approached him and told him to stop. We did not appreciate his contrived eyesore and he explained he is the timmy and needs x number of routes of at least 5.xx difficulty within x mi, for his training. We let him know of the "local ethic" and waited to see his response. (my friend was upset by this, "what the fuck was all that TALKING, I thought we were going up there to DO SOMETHING). In the end we (or I) were resigned to the fact that although young men are not above assault, it is not entirely without consequences. Also, defacing the "rock" (by removing the route) is a poor way to protest the defacing of the "rock". I did not want to waste my precious time chasing timmy when I could be climbing. So we climbed elsewhere. As an added bonus to leaving the routes alone all of the assholes coming down from Alb. would climb at Dirt Wall and only there. So in a way the practice was "accepted", but in another way we simply realized if some one wants to climb glue and dirt maybe that's what they should do.

antagonist69 wrote: I personally have no need to insult you because I am very confident in my ability to reason arguments and decipher information and I will not resort to the the easiest and worst way to win an argument, by insulting people and calling people names like an eight year old. On the other hand, I believe that we should hear what you are saying because it is essential to the argument being presented about local ethics. However, could you please take the shit out of your mouth first? Thanks.

This response seemed kinda excessive even if in reaction to a pissed off fella from Socorro. Weren't we moving toward more of a dialog than an argument? Even you seemed to like it when the tone was more civil.

W

I know this may not be relevant, but is there a difference between a fixed anchor and chain quickdraw? I thought anchors were at the end of a climb only. I ask this because I have heard of crags getting closed because they covered with chain-style quickdraws (and carpet), and this practice is becoming more popular.

-Dowdy

Is it time for a third party mediator?
-dowdy

antagonist69 wrote:Do you really believe everyone who climbs at the dirt wall is an asshole? Really?

No. not really. Such an exaggeration could only be the pedantic tool of an antagonist. But you already knew that. I was, of course, referring to a specific time and place. I did not say all Albuquerque climbers are assholes (I haven't meet them all). I did say those climbers coming to dirtwall from turkeytown at that time were assholes because that is my memory of the experience of it. Anyone who would seek me out because of a shared half memory nearly 20 years after the fact would simply be pathetic. Don't worry I'm not calling you pathetic, you didn't say it. Before you deleted it from your post you invoked an unnamed third party to imply it for you, that's not pathetic at all. Here is some information about me that may or may not make a difference to you. I am from Albuquerque. Born and raised until 18 years old when I went to NMTech (in the fall of '88, started climbing in Box, Jan. '89). Am I an ASSHOLE climber from Albuquerque? I'll let you decide. At least you will be judging me and not some hidden identity.
I do want to thank you for your response though because every one here gets to see me getting reminded of the merits of civil discourse in an attempt to reach consensus, by a self-labeled "Antagonist". And that is something we can all laugh at. It's good for us all to not take ourselves too seriously. The pitfalls of taking ourselves too seriously is one of the long lasting lessons from my early experience with Timmy and ethics. Also from that time, I learned that rock climbing (perhaps because of its inherently dangerous nature) deserves respect and care in its approach. I say in its approach because the actual act of climbing is absurd and would be pointless if it weren't so much fun. But we should approach it with care and respect. Now, if you can respect that, then you can respect the rock and how you want to try and get up it. And if how that is done matters at all to you, you should try and leave it in such a state that the next climber to come along will have the same opportunities to make their own choices about it as well. Consensus is difficult because climbing ethics are as varied as there are climbers. Over the years with more climbers and more routes, you not only make choices about how you want to climb a rock, but also how you want to climb someone's modifications to the rock. Perhaps by taming some of the risk of climbing, we inadvertently diminished the amount of respect we brought to climbing.
I guess I am just old, but I am glad I grew up in climbing before glue was widely used. Things like gluing Big Block weren't even considered. We simply understood the only constant is change. We accepted that our favorite problems might change season to season and year to year. This was the nature of climbing rocks. We didn't have to solidify our vision and ego in the stone by freezing the route/problem/variation we last did. If something changed, you adapted or moved on. Maybe it is more of a bouldering mentality? Or maybe it simply requires some humility.
These words I write won't have any effect on ethics anymore than the words I spoke to Timmy all those years ago at the base of dirtwall. Ethics are not determined by the loudest voice. Action trumps discourse. What are called ethics are often no more than the after the fact judgment of someone else's actions. Climbers in general are a feral lot, but hopefully with a sincere approach to the act of climbing we can stop being our own worst enemy. I encourage leave no trace, but I'm not the ethics police, arbitrator or pollster. I just like to climb stone, but as I was reminded when I was helping to teach Sunday school, "we are never alone". So it is reasonable to consider others who will be affected by your actions.

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