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Sometimes it's OK to sew it up.

SethG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 291

Like I said, I hesitated to say it, but I wasn't the first, and it looked to me like no one was responding to the questions about the placements. That's why I said this really should be a wake-up call.

If Kurt knew the rock was bad and that the placements were crap, then there's a different issue with regard to his sanity that we should be talking about, I guess! It's none of my business but when something like this is posted on the internet it becomes game for public dissection, and I worry when I see a video presented like this without some soul-searching also being involved. I hope for Kurt's own sake that behind the scenes he is asking the same questions a few of us are asking here.

Anyway, glad it worked out okay. Did he lead back up to take out the blue Alien?

Edit: I cross-posted with some others, the point about the wet rock is also useful.

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241

Next time, just run it out from the good .4 placement, duuuuude!

Hairy!

To the gear critique: I'd take his gripping experience as more of a parable on wet sandstone than anything. I hate to assume, but I'd think Kurt probably placed a cam or two before hopping on this line. The Creek isn't exactly known for fiddly gear.

Kurt Ross · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 280

I don't mind the dissections a bit. I'm still trying to figure out everything that contributed to the failure. Every one of the pieces that failed were correctly sized to the crack. Perhaps the scariest part is that I expected them all to be bomber. In the future I'll place them deeper, but they could't have gone in too much more before being at the trigger. I predict that the smooth lobes on all of the cams that pulled made quite a bit of difference on that sandy sand stone. This is just speculative though. The C4 was indeed under-cammed, which is why I placed those... bomber cams above it so close together. I learned a lot from this close call.

Ryan,
I'll try not to fall next time.

camhead · · Vandalia, Appalachia · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,240
Phil Lauffen wrote:Also, It had rained some the day/night before. We were hesitant to get on the rock, but the ground was dry, so we figured the south facing aspects were ok by noon. I wouldn't be surprised if this contributed, in retrospect.
I'm with you on that. A friend decked several years ago on Battle of the Bulge (same crag, obviously) after pulling several bomber looking pieces. It was also the day after a rainstorm. Be careful, folks.
Conor Byrne · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 34

in the spirit of looking at ways to learn from this, it looks like your waist is right about at the top piece just prior to the fall. while placements, prior rain, etc... all contribute to how big a fall is, id like to point out how far back your belayer is standing.
in a routine fall from a waist height piece, the fall should not be too big. after watching this, and seeing how far you fell before the belay device really started doing the work, id assume that there was a bit of slack in the system. add this to how far back the belayer is standing (needless slack that the belayers weight is unable to account for) and you give your self a pretty big fall onto a waist height or mid thigh height piece.

Conor Byrne · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 34

also im glad to see you're ok! that looked like quite a ride.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

glad to see you are ok. the gear on this route isn't as straight forward as a lot of the creek routes. the crack is small, kind of irregular, sometimes you aren't in the best position to see inside the crack (stemming or lybacking), and as kurt pointed out some times the trigger piece just below the alien's head interferes with the crack. i remember using some of the bigger sized ballnutz because the pod shape whould make the cam want to umbrella. with this size of crack, a millimeter can be a mile, so the gear has to be pretty much perfect.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

It's tough to know that your gear is "bomber" 100% of the time. When a friend and I were testing totem cams, I placed several that I was sure would pull, and they didn't. On the other hand, I placed a couple that did pull, and then I pulled my backup cam below. Luckily I had more than one backup.

Another time, at Indian Creek, I took a 20 footer onto a red metolius tcu. It didn't budge.

Moral of the story is to calculate your risk and go with what you're comfortable on. Wet sandstone is a different story, but it sounds like you just didn't know.

-sp · · East-Coast · Joined May 2007 · Points: 75
Willa wrote:Don't climb in the desert after it rains...I thought that was pretty well known.
Nope. Been climbing for a dozen years and didn't really appreciate the length of time the rock takes to dry until this thread: mountainproject.com/v/nevad…
mark felber · · Wheat Ridge, CO · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 41
Phil Lauffen wrote: The first piece was a purple C3, the second piece was a blue alien and you might notice its still in the rock after the fall. Somehow the carabiner unclipped from the piece and slid down the rope. The third, a green alien blew.
I've had the rope unclip from a piece when the carabiner gate fluttered open as I fell, luckily the piece above held so no harm done. The placement was a sideways stopper with a stiff sport draw, which held the carabiner at a 90 degree angle to the rock, with the spine of the carabiner against the rock. Apparently when I came off the rope moving through the carabiner smacked the spine of the carabiner against the rock hard enough to open the gate, and the rope came out of the carabiner. Wire gate carabiners, which have a lighter gate and stiffer spring than conventional carabiners, are supposed to reduce the likelihood of this happening. My other solution to this issue is to use very flexible slings or draws whenever possible, and to err on the side of making the sling a little too long.

Could this have been the cause of the blue alien unclipping? Removing the blue alien from the system that way would certainly increase the load on the green alien.
Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60
-sp wrote: Nope. Been climbing for a dozen years and didn't really appreciate the length of time the rock takes to dry until this thread: mountainproject.com/v/nevad…
Maybe you don't climb alot on sandstone, but if you did, you'd know it needs more than a day to dry out.
Justin Brunson · · Tacoma WA · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 2,266
Mark Felber wrote: I've had the rope unclip from a piece when the carabiner gate fluttered open as I fell, luckily the piece above held so no harm done. The placement was a sideways stopper with a stiff sport draw, which held the carabiner at a 90 degree angle to the rock, with the spine of the carabiner against the rock. Apparently when I came off the rope moving through the carabiner smacked the spine of the carabiner against the rock hard enough to open the gate, and the rope came out of the carabiner. Wire gate carabiners, which have a lighter gate and stiffer spring than conventional carabiners, are supposed to reduce the likelihood of this happening. My other solution to this issue is to use very flexible slings or draws whenever possible, and to err on the side of making the sling a little too long. Could this have been the cause of the blue alien unclipping? Removing the blue alien from the system that way would certainly increase the load on the green alien.
This is one of the reasons i like wiregates.. no gate flutter when you hit the spine.
Eric Krantz · · Black Hills · Joined Feb 2004 · Points: 420
SethG wrote:Did he lead back up to take out the blue Alien?
Maybe the camera crew retrieved it on the way down.

Glad you're OK, Kurt!
Phil Lauffen · · Innsbruck, AT · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 3,098
Eric Krantz wrote: Maybe the camera crew retrieved it on the way down. Glad you're OK, Kurt!
Correct. After that fall we were only interested in toproping the line.
-sp · · East-Coast · Joined May 2007 · Points: 75
Fat Dad wrote: Maybe you don't climb alot on sandstone, but if you did, you'd know it needs more than a day to dry out.
Not much sandstone in New England, so it was a bit of a surprise to hear how long you need to wait. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of climbers that visit places like Red Rock only every few years are probably not as tuned in as they should be.
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
Phil Lauffen wrote: only heard about the rain the day before, so we didn't have a correct idea of how wet things may have gotten.
If you read the fine print in your guide book it would have said that it rained hard the day before. Too bad people told you first hand that it rained at all. That shit is worthless.
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
Phil Lauffen wrote: Uh, there is no bolt down low. At least there wasn't when we were there. Kurt was at one of the cruxes when he fell. The first piece was a purple C3, the second piece was a blue alien and you might notice its still in the rock after the fall. Somehow the carabiner unclipped from the piece and slid down the rope. The third, a green alien blew.
You're right... I was thinking of Fuel Injected Hard Body... just down the wall.

So, one cam blew the rock out, one came unclipped and one just came out?
mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885
Phil Lauffen wrote: Agreed. This was a poor judgement call on our part. We didn't have a guidebook and were walking along the base of the cliff, and decided to hop on this cool-looking corner. We had come in early the same morning and had only heard about the rain the day before, so we didn't have a correct idea of how wet things may have gotten.
What brand and model of rope were you using? I'd be curious to learn the rated impact force on it. In that cam size range, the difference between a rope with a 7.2kN ish (or less - Tendon, Beal) impact rating and one with 9.5kN+ (Mammut, Maxim) might be a factor as well.

Hard to quantify but looking HERE says there would be some difference
Phil Lauffen · · Innsbruck, AT · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 3,098
Greg D wrote: If you read the fine print in your guide book it would have said that it rained hard the day before. Too bad people told you first hand that it rained at all. That shit is worthless.
Haha, agreed. We effed up. At least we got a cool video from it.

People: don't climb in the desert after it rains, even if you didn't see the rain, it is still real.

Edit to add: I would like to say creek pastures emptied and everyone there went climbing that day. I guess if you drive 7 hours out there, the ground feels dry, and the sun has been shining for hours, you'd like to assume that its ok to climb.
Phil Lauffen · · Innsbruck, AT · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 3,098
Ryan Williams wrote: You're right... I was thinking of Fuel Injected Hard Body... just down the wall. So, one cam blew the rock out, one came unclipped and one just came out?
Yep. In regards to the question about the cam failing: Yes, the cam did not break. The placement did.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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