What's up with CCH?

mattm wrote: There are still 4 lobes and 4 springs like any other cam.

Most cams use 2 springs. 1 for each opposing set of cam lobes.

Most Aliens have a spring inside each lobe. The smallest have 2 springs.

I wonder how they made those internal springs??

mattm wrote:@Adatesman - They may have changed the design but on my aliens, I only count 7 swages. Thumb Loop, 2 for the trigger tube (copper bands) and 4 for the trigger wires.

No interest in getting into a pissing match with you over this, but it all depends on what size and generation Alien you're looking at. Some of the smaller ones used sewing needles (literally... former employee of theirs confirmed it to me) as trigger wires, which eliminated 4 of the swages (heads were below the trigger bar and threaded through the lobes and then bent upon assembly). Others had balls soldered onto stranded cable that passed through the lobes and had a ball soldered/swaged on the other side, others balls swaged onto cable at the top bar that was swaged to solid wire that went through the lobes and yet others had a combination of things.

Easy way to settle it is for you to assign a cost to your time (including business overhead for things like equipment, lighting and benefits) and sit down with all of the component parts and see how long it takes you to assemble one. You've got maybe $10 in materials plus 15 minutes of machine time for the parts that go through the CNC, which from what I'm told was a Mori Seiki lathe with live tooling for the lobes, head and trigger terminations and I'm assuming a small vertical mill for the trigger bars. Probably at least $400k in CNC equipment there (if not more... Mori's are rather nice machines and priced accordingly; I used to work for one of their distributors. And cost goes way up if you add on a bar feeder for the lathe in an attempt to bring the cycle times down), so figure monthly notes on that equipment plus overhead likely puts the shop rate at ~$60/hr. So 10 + 15 + overhead + (assembly time * pay rate) = ?

Long story short, I've done a cost analysis on this and came up with something north of $100 retail. If you have different results I'd love to see them. IMO the only way CCH made a go of it was because they were essentially a garage operation with limited overhead, demand exceeding supply (and the resulting price premium) and employees willing to work for peanuts. Were this not the case, someone else would have picked it up by now.

JLP wrote: The rule of thumb for a non-commodity product is 25% of retail for the manf cost, so that would be a $300+ cam - at least for a company like BD that wants to make money.

Not quite following the $300 cam thing. I was looking at it from the manufacturing side as 33-50% markup to retail, resulting in a retail price of $100+.

Aric Datesman wrote: Long story short, I've done a cost analysis on this and came up with something north of $100 retail. If you have different results I'd love to see them. IMO the only way CCH made a go of it was because they were essentially a garage operation with limited overhead, demand exceeding supply (and the resulting price premium) and employees willing to work for peanuts. Were this not the case, someone else would have picked it up by now.

This is the gist of it, from everything I've heard talking with different gear manufacturers. All of us who were lucky enough to get "golden age" Aliens were actually the beneficiaries of what was essentially a more individualistic, craftsman-era, pre-industrial revolution production model, and one of the very last of its kind in the climbing industry.

20 kN wrote: I have a community service announcement. It should be noted that "Aric Datesman" barely climbs 5.6 and has little to no real world climbing experience. A few months ago he spent days deleting 3,000+ posts off rockclimbing.com because his feelings were hurt and that was his way getting "back at everyone". When confronted with challenge and criticism he folds like a house of cards and high tails out of the situation. You should take note of this when reading his so called 'advice'.

Nothing that Aric said was dependent on his ability to climb hard or not. Attack what he was saying, not his person.

And, USNavy/20kN, if you really want to get into rc.com, perhaps we could tell mountainproject what everyone over there thinks of you and your climbing abilities?

I could dig up where you called The Shield a grade VII, for starters.

camhead wrote: And, USNavy/20kN, if you really want to get into rc.com, perhaps we could tell mountainproject what everyone over there thinks of you and your climbing abilities? I could dig up where you called The Shield a grade VII, for starters.

My favorite was when he was giving big-wall advice before, you know, actually ever doing one. Good times...

But really, I'd be happy if he'd simply just quit following me around like this. It's getting rather tiresome.

Aric Datesman wrote: No interest in getting into a pissing match with you over this, but it all depends on what size and generation Alien you're looking at. Some of the smaller ones used sewing needles (literally... former employee of theirs confirmed it to me) as trigger wires, which eliminated 4 of the swages (heads were below the trigger bar and threaded through the lobes and then bent upon assembly). Others had balls soldered onto stranded cable that passed through the lobes and had a ball soldered/swaged on the other side, others balls swaged onto cable at the top bar that was swaged to solid wire that went through the lobes and yet others had a combination of things.

Not pissing, just pointing out that different generations have different specs, some which fall below what you were quoting. There ARE variations that have all the weird stuff you note. Below I included a picture of what I think is a very common design of the Alien (and what I have circa 2003)

Aric Datesman wrote: Easy way to settle it is for you to assign a cost to your time (including business overhead for things like equipment, lighting and benefits) and sit down with all of the component parts and see how long it takes you to assemble one. You've got maybe $10 in materials plus 15 minutes of machine time for the parts that go through the CNC, which from what I'm told was a Mori Seiki lathe with live tooling for the lobes, head and trigger terminations and I'm assuming a small vertical mill for the trigger bars. Probably at least $400k in CNC equipment there (if not more... Mori's are rather nice machines and priced accordingly; I used to work for one of their distributors. And cost goes way up if you add on a bar feeder for the lathe in an attempt to bring the cycle times down), so figure monthly notes on that equipment plus overhead likely puts the shop rate at ~$60/hr. So 10 + 15 + assembly time * pay rate = ? Long story short, I've done a cost analysis on this and came up with something north of $100 retail. If you have different results I'd love to see them. IMO the only way CCH made a go of it was because they were essentially a garage operation with limited overhead, demand exceeding supply (and the resulting price premium) and employees willing to work for peanuts. Were this not the case, someone else would have picked it up by now.

Last first, I think the reason other CAM companies haven't jumped in vary but are all pretty logical. Most already had a fairly NEW small cam design on the market. BD had their small cam offerings - C3s and the small C4s. Wild Country had theirs with Zeros. Both Metolius and DMM only had their TCUs. Metolius did join the game with Mastercams. DMM could have be busy (R&D and $$ wise) with the Dragons. The other thing you have working here is time to tool up and produce a better Alien. As someone above pointed out, it took DMM years to re-tool for the Offsets. You're gonna want to make them better etc etc so there's some R&D there for sure. That's assuming you're free and clear on patent issues.

The reason I'm not buying your (and others) "cost analysis" is that it just doesn't jive with other things on the market and what they show me. Again, without actually seeing a companies books you can't be positive BUT you can compare and contrast pretty well. You (and others again) say they should price out above $100 retail yet they were in the low $60s.

Assuming labor is a constant rate - let's look at a C3 vs an Alien.



#1-Head Termination) C3s have (2), Aliens have one. The C3s aren't soldered like the alien. While the soldering is more labor intensive (and the MAJOR issue with Aliens) a NEW Alien could use the C3 method easily. So 2 swages on the C3 vs 1 on the "New Alien"

#2-Custom "metal parts") The C3 uses 2 shaped metal parts (MIM? Forged?). Not simple to make.
The Alien has two flat metal plates. Both are easily stamped. The top one needs holes drilled and both need a small compression fit tube added for the sleeve. I'll say that the Alien is more complicated LABOR wise in it's current state but again, modernizing the piece would alleviate this.

#3- Sling) The C3 has a more complicated sling (doubled over at the cable) requiring more intricate sewing. The Alien is a simple loop.

#4-Thumb Loop / Molded Parts) Two things here. The C3 uses two molded plastic parts. One to help form the thumb loop. The Alien uses a simple swage. The C3 Trigger bar is a more complicated piece than the Alien to make. Probably a wash assembling since you have that trigger tube to fit on the alien vs the trigger wires to attach on the C3.

#5-Trigger "Sheath") C3s use the rubber piece with the metal top and plastic bottom (all need to be made and assembled) The Alien uses wire mesh tube and web cover. Cut to length and insert. Done. The newer ones used just the sheath so there, cut to length and done. The C3 is more complicated here.

#6-Trigger Wires) Hard to tell how complicated the C3s are. They have a VERY complicated shape - lots of bends and hooks but it could be simple to put in place. Aliens in this iteration have 4 swages. The aliens are a bit more complicated labor wise here. However, you could vastly simplify this with a better designed part. A Trigger wire with a wide head (think like a nail) could just be inserted into the plate.

#7-Cam Heads) Aliens are all the same. Flat stock with some teeth cut in and holes for axle and trigger wires. Then rotate and mill the spring wire slot. C3s use 3 different lobes. Left, Right and Center. They have what looks to be a more complicated milling (removing material behind the cam face vs the slot in the Aliens) C3s seem slightly more complicated.

We can keep on doing this for other parts... Bottom line is, until you do a cost breakdown of OTHER cams that appear as complicated if not more so and show where the aliens in their current design (let alone a redesign with modern assembly techniques) are vastly more expensive to make, the claim that you need "slave labor" to make them affordable is bunk. They are not vastly more complicated than any other cam out there and I maintain that other may even be more complicated to make.

I mean, OP can make a LINK CAM for sub $100!

Give me estimated cost breakdowns of other cams on the market and see if they don't run high as well...

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, Matt. I'm fine with that.

And FWIW, my analysis of other cam designs has them falling round about where they are in the marketplace. Heck, even my designs work out to ~$50 retail and that's with buying materials in small quantities at retail pricing and pricing my time at $30/hr (admittedly overhead is artificially low in that calculation, as I've long since written off the cost of the machinery).

Speaking of my designs, I'm actually supposed to be down working on them at the moment so I'm wandering off.

-aric.

Aric Datesman wrote:Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, Matt. I'm fine with that. And FWIW, my analysis of other cam designs has them falling round about where they are in the marketplace. Heck, even my designs work out to ~$50 retail and that's with buying materials in small quantities at retail pricing and pricing my time at $30/hr (admittedly overhead is artificially low in that calculation, as I've long since written off the cost of the machinery). Speaking of my designs, I'm actually supposed to be down working on them at the moment so I'm wandering off. -aric.

This is what I'm looking for Aric. Give me your cost breakdowns of the other cams on the market. Show me your methodology for pricing out an Alien vs other cams.

Break Down a Link Cam for me.
Break Down a BD C3 for me.
Break Down a Dragon Cam.

I want to see how something that has no hot forging, fairly simple lobes, simple sling, no molded plastic parts (costly machine) no anodization etc etc supposedly prices out FAR above the other things on the market.

mattm wrote: This is what I'm looking for Aric. Give me your cost breakdowns of the other cams on the market. Show me your methodology for pricing out an Alien vs other cams. Break Down a Link Cam for me. Break Down a BD C3 for me. Break Down a Dragon Cam. I want to see how something that has no hot forging, fairly simple lobes, simple sling, no molded plastic parts (costly machine), no advantages of large scale production, etc etc prices out FAR above the other things on the market.

Heh. I seem to recall asking you for your numbers for Aliens first. :-P :-)

But seeing as I'm dead in the water until I can remember where I put the prototype I'm supposed to be working on today....

A typical no-frills cam of traditional single stem design (think RE Durango) works out to ~$18 in materials (bought full retail in small quantities with the molded trigger replaced with an aluminum bar). General shop rate for small sized, sub-1000 piece quantity CNC machining not requiring anything fancy is currently ~$75/hr (contracted out so we can avoid the complication of capitalization and depreciation of the equipment for this discussion). I'd likely quote a run of 1000 lobes and 250 heads and axles at ~$2000 or so with customer-supplied material (I used to run a machine shop, so have some experience in this), which works out to $8 per cam. This then brings us to $26 prior to assembly. From there you'll have to figure your rate and time for assembly. If we call it 4 assembled cams / hour @ $15/hr that's another $4. So right there is $30 in COGS, which marked up to retail puts you in the $45-55 ballpark. Which, oddly enough, is right where RE happens to fall. BTW, numbers I used were 1 minute/lobe (1 operation in a VMC), 2 minutes/head (2 operations, lathe + VMC or drill press), 0.5 minutes/axle (1 operation, lathe).

Machining cost for Aliens will run higher due to the need for specialized machinery to make them efficiently (lathe with a large spindle bore plus live tooling and a large bore barfeed), so you're probably looking at a shop rate of $150/hr and up. Cycle times on both the axle and lobes will be slightly longer as well due to cutting the slots. Costing the machining gets a bit tricky to cost due to tool life for the endmill used to cut the slot in the axle (very small and easy to break), but let's ignore that for now. I figure you've got 1.25 minutes/lobe, 1 minutes/head, 1 minute/axle and 0.5 minutes each for the two trigger terminations (all done in 1 operation on a lathe with live tooling). That works out to ~$5000 with customer supplied material, or ~$20/cam. So even if you can maintain the 4 cams/hr assembly time and don't re-figure the materials cost for the different design (I don't have time to do that at the moment, but key bit being barstock rather than plate for the lobes), you're still looking at $18 + $20 + $4 = $42 in COGS / $63-84 retail. Factor in that I doubt you'll maintain the 4 cams/hour, the fact that I'm likely low on that shop rate (been a while since I priced out that kind of machinery), tooling issues and differences in material cost it's probably a good bit higher than that. EDIT- See edit #3 below... Looks like I was low on that shop rate. Oh, and it looks like I kinda neglected the turned trigger terminations, which has been edited in above and included in the more correct figures using the higher shop rate in Edit #3 below.

Anyway, I was hoping this distraction would help me remember where I put the prototype I'm supposed to be working on, but sadly I still have no idea. Guess I'm off to do yet another search. :-(

EDIT- Oh, BTW, Dragons use forged pieces for at least the head termination, 2 of the links on each Link Cam lobe are powmet, and the big plastic thingy on the C3 is molded, so none of them really qualify for the 'no hot forging, fairly simple lobes, etc' thing in your request above, hence my going with the RE.

EDIT x2- Now having said all that, perhaps you'd be so kind as to now show your numbers? :-)

EDIT x3- Yup, looks like I am low on the shop rate for the lathe with barfeed and live tooling. Just ran a quote on spec'ing a Haas to do it (they're ok machines, not great, but definitely better than something like a Fadal...) and even then you're looking at $150/hr to cover note plus overhead plus wages plus profit. So going with a good machine like a Mori (as I'm told CCH was running) you can easily hit $225 - 250/hr if not more, which puts the Alien at ~$55 COGS and $82-110 retail (which is still likely low due to the aforementioned caveats). Hmmm... where did we hear those kind of numbers before? :-)

John Wilder wrote: uh, no. thats the reason the wires for the trigger are oriented that way, but the reason they dont have a tube design (as they did on the prototypes) is because Doug (the owner) deemed the tube not strong enough so they went with the wires instead.

I dont buy that either.

I have never had an alien tube break or wear out on me yet... I have had a mastercam cord come undone and made it a (insert any foul word here) to clean. I also have seen broken cords on other mastercams. How would a SS weave sheath not be durable? Unless your talking about the post recall nylon only tubes, which I have yet to break or fray as well...

Aric, still not getting to the root of my issue.

How is it then that cams that appear more complicated and use more exotic materials and processes (hot forging, molded plastic etc etc - see posts above for more) MSRP for LESS or even FAR LESS than the $100 you're quoting for an Alien.

you're saying the alien is "complicated" and should cost $100.

I'm saying a C3, Link Cam etc are MORE "complicated" and yet DON'T cost $100

show me why I'm wrong re: the C3s and Link Cams

Matt, as I said before I don't care to argue this. You asked for my cost breakdown for a regular cam and for an Alien, which I provided. You, on the other hand, have yet to provide any numbers showing how your analysis falls out or how my analysis is faulty. So if you don't mind, I'm going move onto other things until you actually provide us something to discuss.

And by the way, Link Cams DO cost $100. mountaingear.com/pages/prod…

Aric Datesman wrote:Matt, as I said before I don't care to argue this. You asked for my cost breakdown for a regular cam and for an Alien, which I provided. You, on the other hand, have yet to provide any numbers showing how your analysis falls out or how my analysis is faulty. So if you don't mind, I'm going move onto other things until you actually provide us something to discuss. And by the way, Link Cams DO cost $100. mountaingear.com/pages/prod…

That's fine, we've been down this path before...

Up thread I specifically asked you to break down 3 cams that I view as more complicated yet cost less than your theoretical Alien MSRP. You said you have and I've yet to see anything other than a RE cam discussed(one that I did not mention at all)

Can you break down costs of Hot Forging, Anodizing, Injection Molding etc etc etc? I can't and have never claimed to. I've asked YOU to add to this if you could. Instead you say "I've got my numbers, where are yours?" even is those numbers don't do ANYTHING to address my (and others) questions.

Your knowledge and numbers are interesting if not valuable but have little to do with the specific areas I questioned about. Until we can tackle that, we've got little else to discuss.

I say your numbers seem high given an examination of what's on the market today.

mattm wrote: That's fine, we've been down this path before...

That we have.

mattm wrote: Up thread I specifically asked you to break down 3 cams that I view as more complicated yet cost less than your theoretical Alien MSRP.

And if you scroll way back to page 1 of the thread you said:

mattm wrote:I have serious doubts about the assembly cost claims. Aliens are no more complicated than a C3 and probably less so.

and:

mattm wrote:All of this can be done for $70 MSRP in my mind. Again, look at the C3 original MSRP. A well made, improved Alien that performed as well as or better than the original would sell like gang busters at $70.

To which I replied:

Aric Datesman wrote:My analysis of it puts it around the $100 mark or so, assuming you pay a living wage. If you have a cost analysis that shows different I'd love to see it.

And remember, this was WAY BEFORE you asked me to break down the costs for a C3, LinkCam, etc. Feel free to argue your later point all you like; I'll be waiting here for an answer to the question I posed to you before any of that came about. I've made my case in support of my contention based upon an actual manufacturing cost analysis and it's yours to accept, refute or ignore.

And on a side note, you simply can't do a cost comparison based upon perceived complexity, especially if you have no clue about the cost of the manufacturing processes involved. That, my friend, will get you a /facepalm/.

mattm wrote: That's fine, we've been down this path before... Up thread I specifically asked you to break down 3 cams that I view as more complicated yet cost less than your theoretical Alien MSRP. You said you have and I've yet to see anything other than a RE cam discussed(one that I did not mention at all)

From your earlier post:

mattm wrote: This is what I'm looking for Aric. Give me your cost breakdowns of the other cams on the market. Show me your methodology for pricing out an Alien vs other cams. Break Down a Link Cam for me. Break Down a BD C3 for me. Break Down a Dragon Cam. This is what I'm looking for Aric. Give me your cost breakdowns of the other cams on the market. Show me your methodology for pricing out an Alien vs other cams. Break Down a Link Cam for me. Break Down a BD C3 for me. Break Down a Dragon Cam. I want to see how something that has no hot forging, fairly simple lobes, simple sling, no molded plastic parts (costly machine) no anodization etc etc supposedly prices out FAR above the other things on the market.

You asked for a cost breakdown of Aliens and another cam on the market. I chose RE Durangos and Aliens because I had already done an analysis on them (the Durango to set a baseline for comparison to the designs I'm working on and Aliens because I was curious if the numbers I was told were correct). I have no interest in do an analysis on Link Cams, C3s or Dragons and will not be doing them. You're more than welcome to, if you like. But long story short, my analysis of the Durango fell right in line with where it is retail and the same methodology applied to Aliens falls right in line with the analysis done by a gear company that looked into buying CCH a while back and ultimately took a pass on it. Take it or leave it, it's up to you.

Aric Datesman wrote: And on a side note, you simply can't do a cost comparison based upon perceived complexity, especially if you have no clue about the cost of the manufacturing processes involved. That, my friend, will get you a /facepalm/.

I've asked again and again to be enlightened regarding manufacturing processes and their costs.

I've stated I PERCEIVE certain processes to be costly.

I've stated I PERCEIVE certain components to be costly.

I never claimed them as FACT. Just observation.

THEY (C3s etc) APPEAR to be more costly to manufacture than an Alien.

You say your #s say other wise. That an Alien should be more costly to make than a C3 etc.

I ask you, why is this? I doesn't seem right.

Can you tell me why a C3 should cost less to make than an Alien?

If not, ok then. I'll move on.

EDIT: Saw the above post. Moving on.

Time wasted = Cost of an Alien. Ha.

JLP wrote:Aric - there is only one person in the room who doesn't get it. Please stop replying to them. Thanks.

Then you break it down for me and help me get it.

Show me how an Alien is more costly than a C3 or Link Cam.

Sounds like a good plan, JLP.

Sorry Matt, it appears what I'm saying just isn't getting through and I'm moving on. If you really want an analysis done for the C3 and LinkCam simply follow through what I outlined and plug in the appropriate numbers.

Aric Datesman wrote:If you really want an analysis done for the C3 and LinkCam simply follow through what I outlined and plug in the appropriate numbers.

He doesn't need to plug the numbers. He perceives what he feels. He's the Decider. He has faith that he is right. Don't trouble him with your "analysis," and your so-called "facts," Mister Numbers Cruncher!