Dear Shelf Road Chiseler:

Let's face it: the rock itself doesn't give a rat's ass.

Yes, almost everyone is against it.

Rocks don't have feelings.. OK. I'm not following your logic here.

Elijah Flenner,

I’ve never really thought about it that way. Gym climbing and sport climbing are about the same, in the sense that they don’t exist unless manufactured. Maybe you should ask why you sport climb. If the route is fun what difference does it make if it’s natural or not? If you want natural go alpine climbing. Crags are places you go to have fun.

Elena Sera Jose, get real. Colorado is chipped. Sometimes you can even see the glue from the ground. This happens everywhere whether you know it or not.

elena sera jose wrote:wow brought the memories of birdsborrow , pa back and the notorious drilled finger pocket abomination...bad thing to alter a climb, no respect for that whatsoever, its not the difficulty of the route its the idea of chipping the rock instead of becoming a better climber that makes me gringe

your going to have to be specific, there are multiple drilled finger pocket abominations now...

ryan beavers wrote:Elijah Flenner, I’ve never really thought about it that way. Gym climbing and sport climbing are about the same, in the sense that they don’t exist unless manufactured. Maybe you should ask why you sport climb. If the route is fun what difference does it make if it’s natural or not? If you want natural go alpine climbing. Crags are places you go to have fun. Elena Sera Jose, get real. Colorado is chipped. Sometimes you can even see the glue from the ground. This happens everywhere whether you know it or not.

I am guessing you either did not read my first post, or did not understand it. I see the challenge of rock climbing as climbing the rock with the holds that are available, and not making new ones to climb the rock. Manufactured routes, ones with manufactured holds, can be easily created in a gym, and I believe that they should stay there.

I draw a distinction between the motivation for altering the rock. If the motivation is to make the climbing physically easier, then it defeats what I see as the goal of rock climbing. Some people will take the harder line that this also applies to mentally easier and the addition of bolts, but I do not make that distinction. However I respect these peoples beliefs and I am willing to designate large areas as no bolting areas.

What I don't see is why routes with manufactured routes cannot be kept within a gym. To me, that is the place to create as many routes as one wants.

Can we bring up bolted cracks now?

The ancient Babylonians had an issue with chipping that they never addressed. Eventually it escalated to the point where this happened:

Egregious chipping.

You should the flaming on the papyrus scrolls this guy took after this.

Could it be that the "driller" was just making a pocket for a small piece of gear... Just kidding.

ryan beavers wrote:I like to climb. Its really fun. If someone hadn't taken the time to chip the hell out of my local crag,(owl tor) it would not exist. Thank you chippers. If you chip you should be more outspoken. You've made some of best routes I've ever fallen off of. P.S. Love what you did with smith rock

I agree. One of my favorite climbs ever is a 5.12 at Wild Iris. It follows a line of perfect 2 and 3 finger pockets up a beautiful white prow. If Paul Piana hadn't chipped it, there would be no climb there or maybe a 5.17c/b. Thanks Paul!

elena sera jose wrote:i personally im against glueing and all , let the nature decide the changes that occur on rock faces, chipping and drilling is lying to yourself basically and climbing is about being honest with yourself, the person who did the drilling in pa i never met but communicated with briefly i think he feels bad about it after all, coz u cant lie to yourself

You may see climbing one way while someone else sees it another way. you appear to climb in order to be honest with yourself. I find that kind of like something out of a Disney movie. Personally, I climb to get strong. Good routes to me are the ones that have small, but positive holds and require epic cranking power.

elena sera jose wrote:i remember it was in birdsborro , pa, the grade like 12- a notoriously known manufactured route, dont remember the name though, colorado being chipped is a sad reality, but drilling holds at shelf is just wrong. personally im against glueing and all , let the nature decide the changes that occur on rock faces, chipping and drilling is lying to yourself basically and climbing is about being honest with yourself, the person who did the drilling in pa i never met but communicated with briefly i think he feels bad about it after all, coz u cant lie to yourself

the name of the route is 'faint'

Yea, but there should be room out there for those of us who want to climb hard and not just have a wilderness experience or commune with nature or something...

bosca wrote:Yea, but there should be room out there for those of us who want to climb hard and not just have a wilderness experience or commune with nature or something...

There is. It's called the climbing gym.

Perhaps the new bank jiseler could be... Jack Mileski back from the dead, or perhaps Dan Durland performing the dark art again or maybe it's Duane Raleigh or Jeff Jackson or JB Tribout? Does anyone know? A petty offense with rather saddening trends at shelf, I must say, because it seems that there might have been a total lack of introspection, with loads of selfishness and desire to send a new route.Many note worthy climbers have made such decisions in order to gain their desired effect and may have later on regretted their actions at that time. All I can add is that climbers need to be more mindful-- think before you spray.

It does look like a well made pocket though, doesn't it?

Yeah, I agree with you LG. I tried country club crack on saturday. The bottom slab is very difficult. I went back on sunday and made some of the holds a little better at the beginning with my drill. Its ok though. If you don't like it, just skip them. Anyways, there are loads of other routes nearby that you can do instead.

ok...

L G wrote: The modern standard is to craft routes that others can climb.

I'm interested by this statement. What are you saying here? That the only reason people put up new routes is for other people to climb them?

L G wrote:The modern standard is to craft routes that others can climb.

this sentence really makes you sound like the typical 'entitled' boulderite. pretty sad.

Phil Lauffen wrote:ok... I'm interested by this statement. What are you saying here? That the only reason people put up new routes is for other people to climb them?

now that would be an interesting new thread. "What are your reasons for establishing new routes?"

i can see it now - "the EVERYMAN world tour, starring Ned Flanders!"

ok folksydoodles, this week we are heading over to a country called europe. this here fella named chris sharma crafted a route but didn't do a good job making it an EVERYMAN route. we're a gonna carve 100 towel racks into it so the average duffer can climb it without giving up the nightly ice cream, or the occasional triple decker buffalo wing melt.

sweet, where do i sign up?