good first tools

looking for my first set of tools for pretty much everything, ice, mixed, maybe even some light mountaineering depending on how i feel when i get going at this new game. i was looking at the quarks for their versatility, but have always really liked the nomics...so what should i do?

what about crampons?

aztars are the best all around tool for alpine. Great for plunging, WI.

Vipers are the next best overall waterfall mixed alpine tool, especially if you can find them at a great price.

I'd ago with the BD sabertooths for crampons. Nothing you can't do in those.

Aztars!! I love mine. I've done up to WI5 with them.

I don't like my grivel rambo evolution 4 crampons with my scarpa freney's. I had a pair of BD "tri-point" (can't remember the name) but they don't make them anymore which sucks.

If you see Aztars, buy them. Petzl is not bringing them into the US anymore......

I am pretty new to the Ice game myself and I climbed on the BD Reactors all last year. Absolutley no complaints and I climbed all types of stuff last season from long Alpine routes to short & sweet Mixed lines.

A great all around leashless tool.

My 2,

Jason

get the grivel rambo 4's and nomics and or new quarks. both rock. they climb mixed and ice amazing. easily adjustable. the new cobra's are pimp. swing amazing. remember this, you get what you pay for. I bought the vipers and ended up purchasing the cobra's. they just don't aswing as nice as the cobra's. own the nomics and they do everything well. now that they have the modular hammer I won't feel so bad banging pins. owned the sabre tooth crampons and they climb okay. the horizontal front points great for alpine, but now people running verticals on alpine climbs. pay up even if you are getting into the sport. it's like climbing shoes. you can definitely tell a difference between a high end shoe and an entry level.it is just more enjoyable when you climb with good shit.

Don't wast your money on anything but the best tool's/boots/crampons
or you'll be sorry in the long run .

Don't buy into the cheap tool bullshit as a first set! believe it or not you will be climbing betterwith good tools from the start there is a reason tools and boots/crampons have evolved

Learn to adpt your style to the tool's your using , there is no such thing as a perfect tool for every type of climbing.If this was the case than there wouldn't be so many tools out there to choose from.

Make sure the crampons you choose fit the boots you want, most dont.
and if you do not have a perfect match of boot and crampon than your climbing will suffer..Period!Never Ever! buy boots w/o trying the crampons you'll be using with them and don't let Anyone tell you that the crampons can be made to adpt at best what you'll end up w/ is a halfassed bastardized pile of useless crap.

As far as horizontal/vertical front points go w/vertical mono if your going to be doing more steep ice/mixed . If you think youll be doing more Alpine than go with something like the M-10/G14/Sarken ect. or the Bd
sabretooth although they would not be my 1st or even 5th choice as I
personaly think horizontals suck for everthing but steep snow and than there are much better crampons (way cheeper too) out there

The new Quarks or the new cobras are a pretty fair all around tool's/ and don't discount the Nomics they also are a great all around tool
they will get you up 90% of everthing out there and do it well, where you will notice the difference is when the ice gets overhanging esp on small pillars ect .

For the other 10% Nomics or the new Ergo's are the shit esp the Ergos
they will make you a superstar on overhanging ice w/ the Nomics coming in a close second this is not to say I don't think the Nomics are good all around tools as Ive used mine on everything out there short of alpine and than only because I personaly like a tool I can plunge ...to each his own right?

Here are the tools I own and use
Quasars
Quasar compact
Axars
Old style ouarks
New style Quarks
New Nomics
New Ergos

Crampons
Rambo gen 3
Petzl M10
Petzl Darts

Boots
La sportiva Nepal Evo GTX
scarpa Phantom light
Kayland M11+

I have been a test pilot for all kinds of crap and after being dissapointed more times than not this is what Ive found to work best for me and the people ive taken ice climbing .As a funny side note most people Ive taken on there firs adventure on ice gravitate to the Nomics and wont climb w/ anything else all day.That to me speaks volumes.

Alias.... I agree w/your logic to a certain degree

You sound like a guy who is looking for a good deal on used Ice Tools.

I look at the whole deal this way

1st someone asks for advice on Ice Tools this means there ready to buy

2nd This same person shows interst in a couple of the most expensive
ice tools out there sans cobras or ergos.

This to me means there ready to buy and drop a couple G's which is also total BS as anyone knows you can find great deals on brand spankin new top of the line gear if one spends the time to look.Ie
right now EMS is selling the new cobra's for 275.a pop Thats 50 bucks off per tool with free shipping and NO sales tax. Thats just one example there are many others ..

I also don't buy into everone selling there gear at half off just because its summer time or they dont like the sport most people myself included would never take that kind of hit to the wallet.

Good ice gear(under 5 years old) just like anything holds most of it's value and ive sold enough gear to realize this as fact, not because I needed too but because I wanted to try something else .

Right Now I can find a total brand new complete setup for Ice climbing
Tools/Boots/Crampons for well under two grand All top shelf gear!

In fact with the EMS deal on Cobras and The deals at Mountain Gear on
La sportiva Batura boots @ 245. pr and BD Cyborgs going for 180.

That's a grand totla of 975 bucks w/free shipping and NO SALES TAX

Most climbers have way more money tied up in rock gear than 975.00!

I dont think anyone out there could argue that any of that gear is less than ideal top shelf gear and Id bet a weeks pay that you wont find it for sale 1/2 off next summer.

Cheers
ICE

thanks for the advice so far everybody, im looking at the reactors and the quarks a little closer now, i def like how versatile the new quarks are so i'll more than likely be going that route, dont really know what to do about boots right now, as i dont think anywhere even relatively close to me sells them so this should be quite an adventure

Black Diamond Reactors or Petzl Quarks seem to be the standard. I'm on my second season with Reactors and I'm pretty psyched on them. I plan on upgrading to a more technical tool, but will hold on to my Reactors because they kick ass and they look cool too.

I use the quarks and absolutely love 'em!!! Way better than any BD tool I've ever used. I've thought about selling them in favor of the new ones and Nomics, but not sure yet. I love my Grivel TaaKoon tools also! As well as my Aztars. As far as crampons go: I owned a pair of Bionics from BD and after trying Grivel I sold them. My feet never felt as secure with them as compared to my Grivel's. Mitch Musci is selling some boots on this site, might want to check them out; they are great boots! And of course, if you can try different tools/crampons that would be to your advantage. Hope you have success in your search.

Mi dos centavos,
Juan

I like my grivel X monsters. They are the 4th set of tools Ive owned, none of those were very fancy either. My X monsters are precise, like an extension of my pointer finger. They are lightweight and compact and very affordable.

on edit: my first set of tools were old school hummingbirds, so anything lighter than those is "lightweight" to me.

tenpins wrote:I like my grivel X monsters. They are the 4th set of tools Ive owned, none of those were very fancy either. My X monsters are precise, like an extension of my pointer finger. They are lightweight and compact and very affordable.

+1

I don't have much experience with other tools but the X Monsters are a good choice for steep ice and mixed and probably the cheapest of the high-end tools out there. Especially if you are big you will appreciate the swing weight (compared to lighter tools). Still, I strongly recommend you try out any tools before you buy them.
As for crampons: Grivel G14s (or G20s if you're looking to do more mixed).

X Monsters + G14s + Sportiva Nepals = $970

I purchased new gear recently, and have similar interests to you. It seems that the most aggressive picks are ideal for WI5 and above or mixed routes, and since I'm not there yet, I went with the new Quark's for tools, and got them at 15% off through my local shop (Rock and Snow) during a festival. They came to $410 for the pair. The Nomic's are wonderful for moderate to steep ice and some mixed. It's hard to find the newest version right now, and they may not be available until late summer. I found they Nomic's excelled at bulges and were very easy for someone with a rock climbing background to use. The lower grip is quite comfortable and the grip tape wors well. That said... they don't plunge too well, and are good but not ideal in Piolet Panne (dagger). I've tried the Vipers and Cobras. Cobras are nice and damp with good head weight to penetrate. Vipers were a good tool, but I found the hand grips on the Petzl tools to be more ergonomic and quark's light weight is ridiculous.
All around, I chose the Quark's. If you're more accomplished and want to climb steep bulges, overhanging ice with mixed sections, then the Nomic's or other aggressive tools are a better choice.

As for Crampons, I have found that vertical points do better on WI, esp if it's boiler-plate hard... and last Sunday it was! Sarken's do well as an all around crampon for WI 1 - 5 and for alpine. If you want to focus on Glacier and Snow, then a light weight semi-rigid with horizontal front points would be best. The G10, Visak, and Sabretooth all work... just need to find the best boot compatibility for your setup. If you want something that waill work for WI, you may find vertical forged front points are best... however, it's rare that they are easy to walk in. Sarken's are the exception as they have "T" points.

For boots... it depends on the temp, altitude, and number of days you will spend outdoors in a row. For single day climbs above 0 degrees F, A solid pair of leather boots are great. The Nepal Evo's are pretty much the standard ($495 MSRP, can be found for $350-400 on sale), and can be worn with insulated overboots to get you down to -20F comfortably. Lighter weight boots with some fabric on the outside (Scarpa Jorasses Pro for example - 400$ MSRP, $320 on sale) are also great, esp if you intend on doing alpine walking where flexibility in the ankle is key. I chose the Jorasses Pro's for that reason (and because they fit my foot). I have used them without overboots down to 10F degrees with no problems.

If you're going on a multi-day trip and will be sleeping in a tent, you need a 2 piece boot so you can dry the liners in your sleeping bag. You can rent these types of boots if you aren't doing high alpine climbing very often. Depending on altitude, you'll find different variations from Scarpa, Koflach, Asolo, Kayland, Millet, and La Sportiva. For 5,000m and below, a simple two piece plastic or leather boot with a gaiter is fine (Scarpa Omega, Alpha, Guide Light, Sportiva Batura, Baruntse) . At 6,000m you will see boots mostly with half-calf integrated expedition gaiters and warmer inners (La Sportiva Spantik, Scarpa 6000, Kayland 6001). For 8000m, you will find boots with integrated full length insulated gaiters made of expedition cloth.

For spending, here's a general guide for initial investment should you want to get your own gear.

Boots $300-500
Tools $400-500
Crampons $150-225
Gaiters $40-80
Accessories $150 (insoles, leashes, protective covers)
Climbing Day Pack $80-140 (30-40L, which you may have)

Investment: $1,120 - 1,600

Assuming you have cold weather active wear, you'll be good to go.

Hope this helps.

iceman777 wrote:I personaly think horizontals suck for everthing but steep snow

Just to chime in with a different point of view, I use my Sabretooths for everything. Probably mostly a function of what you're comfortable with... your mileage may vary.

Chris Drover wrote: Just to chime in with a different point of view, I use my Sabretooths for everything. Probably mostly a function of what you're comfortable with... your mileage may vary.

and I've started using my G12s for everything. in fact, I sold my Cyborgs I like the plain-old no-good-horizontal-front-points so much (even on mixed --- gasp!).

tools.....well, if you have any opportunity to try different ones out, do it. it's taken me a while, but I *think* I've found the tools for me (grivel matrix tech), but I had to try vipers, cobras, nomics, old-straight-shafts, etc. before I came across what worked best for me, my hands, my arms, my shoulders, my eyes, etc.

try before you buy!