Using Cams with Ice

I was wondering what the thoughts are about using Cams on Ice covered rock, and / or parallel sections of solid ice.
Is it suicidal, done regularly, done for aid but not leading, etc.
I was going to use one to aid up a section of steep offwidth plastered with ice on both sides the other day and sketched when I saw how easy the cam ( BD #5 ) slid around. It seemed to hold my weight OK, but not sure I would have led on it.

I haven't read up on SLCD's on ice, but I know that Tri-Cams are not supposed to be used on ice because they expand slightly and melt into the ice, eventually leading to a very poor placement, or total failure.

I'd say no, simply because SLCD's are friction dependent like most devices, although they create additional friction when loaded, your starting coefficient is so low it might not matter. Also I would assume it would walk a lot.

No good hombre, at least in parallels, this is an excellent reason to invest in Rockcentrics or Torque nuts. Those you can pound in if need be.

Brendan Blanchard wrote:but I know that Tri-Cams are not supposed to be used on ice because they expand slightly and melt into the ice, eventually leading to a very poor placement, or total failure.

http://www.camp-usa.com/product-highlights/forum/simple-mechanics-why-tricams-still-rule/Simple%20Mechanics%20-%20Why%20Tricams%20Still%20Rule.pdf




Two other great examples are pockets (slot the tricam in active mode in the much same way you would a horizontal crack, fig. Test C) and icy placements. Because the fulcrum point on a Tricam comes to a virtual point, it bites into softer surfaces more aggressively than the rounded lobes on cams. For this reason Tricams are more suitable in wet or icy cracks. Situate the Tricam so the cam rails are on solid rock, then tug hard enough on the sling while setting the cam to force the fulcrum point into the ice. If it shatters the ice and hits the rock, great. If not, make sure it has been set with enough force to remain embedded in the ice during upward progression (the larger sizes 5, 6 and 7 feature a sharper fulcrum point so these are the best options for these types of placements). Tricams have even been test in cracks formed by a rock wall on one side and waterfall ice on the other (fig. Test A). In a well-formed crack with solid water ice, the ice broke at 11.2 kN!


to the OP .. cams depends on friction ... ask yrself how much friction does ice have?

tricams are da jiggay jiggay boomba

Sorry David, and thanks Bear for correcting me.

What I had read was from the manual that comes with Camp Tri-Cams:
"Just make sure to use the largest size of TRI-CAM possible, as under the weight of the sling and carabiner alone the fulcrum point will melt into the ice until the cam shoulders contact the ice. Take this into consideration when arranging a belay, and don't apply long term strain to a TRI-CAM used between ice and rock."

brendan ... i should be thanking you as i did not know that warning from camp about long term strain ... now i know not to set a portaledge with tricams between rock and ice ... not that i ever would, i think ...

I did try placing a cam in ice covered crack once and it could not hold a s**t. To the OP - go and try it and you will see for yourself!

I'm pretty cautious about using cams on calcite. I'd avoid ice, glass, stainless steel.

Sorry to hijak, but what do you use for pro in glass and stainless steel?

Wyatt - touché

Wyatt H wrote:Sorry to hijak, but what do you use for pro in glass and stainless steel?

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Mass is of course joking - those 1.5" pieces are only rated for direct aid. You need the 4" suction cups to protect a lead fall.

Or just sling the odd faucet.

mass wrote:

the BD suction cups are much better. iv used those ones you got, and had one blow out on me. i took a big wiper and twisted my big toe in the drain

save the cams for the kitchen

The microwave looks a bit suspect. but it will do tell i can find a better spot to place pro (second pitch)

Bryan Jeffrey wrote: the BD suction cups are much better. iv used those ones you got, and had one blow out on me. i took a big wiper and twisted my big toe in the drain save the cams for the kitchen

You should have just placed something smaller between the fridge and cabinet. Or you could have put a tri-cam in between the freezer and fridge door.

Not sure about cams in ice, but I did an experiment with cams in an ice tray. I think the two offset nuts in opposition were better than either cam. The link cam seemed to hold better than the C4, which was pretty tipped out.

A different ice tray may produce better results, hope this experiment is beneficial to someone.

my ice tray

Sam Stephens wrote: You should have just placed something smaller between the fridge and cabinet. Or you could have put a tri-cam in between the freezer and fridge door.

I've done extensive field testing with tricams between the freezer and fridge door and the only one that fits is a filed down .25 (white, or "the shrinkage" as I call it) - not so good for a lead fall. I hate to go this route and you'll all probably roast me for it but if you need to protect that for the lead fall, a Lost Arrow or a sawed-off angle is the ticket. It's a moot point though if your particular model of fridge allows you to girth hitch the handle with a sling.

Bad anchor off the freezer and fridge. the crack just aint deep enough for any good pro. not in direction of pull ether. i should have replaced the .4 cam with a sling around the hinge

scary anchor

adam winslow wrote: It's a moot point though if your particular model of fridge allows you to girth hitch the handle with a sling.

i respectfully disagree. you never know if the handle is screwed on or has those plastic clips. i think going with a sling around the hinge if exposed in the crack is the best bet.

I realy thiink someone should start a creative places to place pro in your house thread, insted of highjacking this poor guys thread.
that would be good for a few go laughs

I'm glad you entered that last post. I was starting to get a complex.
Sick MFO's. Enough said.
Really though.
If your ass was needing something would you go for a Icy Cam placement or say, slinging off some chossy ( chossey ? ) protuberance ?

David Pneuman wrote:I'm glad you entered that last post. I was starting to get a complex. Sick MFO's. Enough said. Really though. If your ass was needing something would you go for a Icy Cam placement or say, slinging off some chossy ( chossey ? ) protuberance ?

i have never climbed in icy conditions so i have no idea what that placment is like, but a littler pro is better than non. till something better comes by. at least it will slow your fall a little. but cams need texture, and if its sliding around what good is it.
tricams sound good.

David Pneuman wrote:If your ass was needing something would you go for a Icy Cam placement or say, slinging off some chossy ( chossey ? ) protuberance ?

+1 for hexes as coldfinger said and
+1 for tricams as Bryan suggests
+ 1/3 for slinging choss. As in, I hope 1 out of 3 choss knobs is good enough to hold a fall. Been there once, emphasis on once!