Where to tie a prusik on a rappel??

Tie an autoblock (not prusik) on the brake side attached to your leg loop.

climbinglife.com/tech-tips/…

Extending the device is OK in some circumstances (rapping with a haulbag or an injured person) but have you ever tried "jugging" back up the line when you need some extra tension? It's near impossible with the belay device at your chin.

DEF wrote: *Confused* Dont want to be a jerk but I really didn't follow that... With a sling or cordelette I extend my ATC through my tie in points, not belay loop. You should never rap off your belay loop (you wouldnt fall on it on lead so why rap off it) Then I attach the prusik to my belay loop, being much stronger and sturdier than a leg loop. Very confused about the "as long as you are extending the belay device with a sling through both your leg loops and waist" Maybe thats not what you meant by that, but this sounds far from "most redundant hence safest method" The prusik is not there to catch you in the event your harness fails in some way, it is in place in case your hands come off the brake.

You are right on. My post says that albeit confusing. A "sling through both your leg loops and waist" means as you tie in and not just girth hitched to your belay loop.

I've tried attaching the back up both above and below the belay device repeatedly (years), and have found pluses and minuses to both. Above the device certainly is the way to go if you anticipate having to re-ascend the line or are working on the wall. That being said, in 99% of my time I rig the back up below the rappel device. It's just easier and more intuitive to use.
I will not however, rig the back-up to my leg loop any more. It's awkward to say the least when you're not getting the friction you want from the rap device as it pulls up on that side of the leg loop. More importantly, I've personally had it loosen the buckle all the way to the end of the leg strap on two different brands of harness (Petzl and Edelweiss), and seen it do so on a number of other folks. If I'm gonna back up the rap, extend it and run the back-up off the rap/belay loop.

As to the integrity of the belay loop, just look at the UIAA and CE testing standards for the loop and decide for yourself. I've not found a more redundant single loop of webbing in all of climbing.

T-Bob

Of course this has been discussed zillions of times. But since no one has mentioned it yet, tests done by cavers years ago established that, in addition to its jamming disadvantages, the prussik above the device will not stop a conscious climber who has lost control of the rappel, because the climber won't release the prussik in time (the natural tendency when anything goes wrong is to grab the rope, not release it). So the prussik above will only work in an emergency if something knocks you out and you let go of everything.

For ordinary rappelling (as opposed to hanging around working on something) any kind of prussik has some liabilities that never get much press. If you just need to stop to untangle something or need both hands to get over a tricky start, the good old leg wrap is absolutely bombproof, which prussik backups are not.

If you are concerned about letting go of the rope while conscious, then you need a backup. But it would be better to rappel on one strand and be belayed on the other.

If you think the only way you'd let go of the rope is if you are unconscious, then it pays to think through what is going to happen when you are hanging unconscious on the rope half way down. You'll die of orthostatic shock if someone doesn't get to you and get you out of the hanging posture, but it will be very difficult for the rest of your party to do this, especially if they are above you.

I think only the first person down should use a backup when circumstances seem to require it. Once they are down, the rest of the party is far better protected by a "fireman's belay" from below, which will allow the party to lower an unconscious climber down to them.

HHS, a more apt term being Harness Suspension Trauma, is simply not proven for climbers at this time.

-sp wrote: Brian mentioned it above but it bears repeating: clipping to the leg loop can be problematic with some harnesses, unless care is taken with how it is attached.

Absolutely right. I've never used a harness without the "double-back" style buckle, so the thought never crossed my mind.

Where to tie a prusik on a rappel??

Before you rappel.

Always under your rappel device, if you are using A.T.C., Reverso 3, Sum, toucan, TRC, etc ...

Only if you are descending/"Rappeling" with a dynamic knot then you have to place the prussic above.

Ben Warner wrote: I checked J. Long & C. Luebben's Advanced Rock Climbing, and they also advise that the prusik be tied on the brake end of the rope.

You just got an answer from J. Long, and The Man himself, C. Luebben. So why would you turn to this community for a second opinion? Makes no sense. Although there are many ways to skin this cat, everyone will have there 2 cents on why this or that, It's all good. But you got your answer from the best in the business, so why sort through a community of confusion?

DEF wrote:You should never rap off your belay loop (you wouldnt fall on it on lead so why rap off it)

But you let someone belay you off their belay loop????? Anyway, when I climb with someone like my 12 yr old son, we both extend our ATCs using a sling, with a knot tied in the middle. The best part of this system, from my perspective, is being able to leave sometime above you pre-rigged on rappel and the ability to clip them in using the free end of the sling once they arrive at the next belay.

Most of the time we don't use a prussik, but I will use one when I expect to have to stop and clear a rope, pull a piece of pro, etc. I will have my son use one when the rappel is difficult, like going over a sharp ledge at the start, having to pendulum over to the next belay ledge, etc.

I was taught to never rap from your belay loop, to extend through your tie in points by multiple climbing partners who are also certified guides/instructors. I wasn't given a reason why it is safer, just told that it is. Maybe this is incorrect or overkill, but at the same time, you don't tie in to your belay loop to climb... (and yes, I realize that you would never generate the force of a lead fall when you rap)

Whenever a rope or sling is attached to the harness it should be through the tie in point (e.g. leg and waist loops) not the belay loop. This is to add redundancy to the system by attaching to 2 points on the harness instead of just a single belay loop (even though belay loops are bomber).

Belay only from the belay loop and not the tie in point. This is to avoid a possible triaxial loading situation on the belay biner.

So whenever extending your belay device with a sling, use the tie in point.

From Petzl

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DEF wrote:I was taught to never rap from your belay loop, to extend through your tie in points by multiple climbing partners who are also certified guides/instructors. I wasn't given a reason why it is safer, just told that it is. Maybe this is incorrect or overkill, but at the same time, you don't tie in to your belay loop to climb... (and yes, I realize that you would never generate the force of a lead fall when you rap)

I don't think there is anything incorrect. I agree by the same logic one could also say that if a person belays off a belay loop than how is that different than tying into the belay loop. Yet I always tie directly into my harness and when roped up I almost always clip my belay device to both my belay loop and the loop of rope that I am tied into.

I think one of the most important things is keeping the area by your belay loop clear of extra biners, slings, and other shit that prevent you from seeing what you are doing. I also think most of us place too much emphasis on discussing "equipment techniques" and too little emphasis on the "habitual practices" Things like:

- Checking each other to make sure both strands of rope are clipped before rappelling.
- Making sure your rope is not a clusterf**ck before you start rappelling.
- Making sure there are knots tied in the ends of your rope.
- Watching where you rappel so you minimize the chances of getting your rope stuck when you pull it down.
- Watching to make sure you rope is not getting all twisted up above you, when you end up rappelling on a Munter because you tossed your ATC off the cliff by accident.
- Bringing a small headlamp so you can see wtf you are doing when it gets dark and/or so you aren't rushing around because you are afraid you are going to get stuck out on a moonless night.
- Carrying some unsewn tat, or a small knife so you can cut an old sling and thread it behind a flake if you decide you have to bail off something.

In my personal experience, most of the near misses I have seen started when things got off plan, we found ourselves out of our element, and we were rushing around for some reason.

Yes, habitual practices are good, especially the safety check ones.

For James Ruch's pictures above, I would strongly recommend adding a 3a picture as a vital step that should not be skipped - It should show the rope fully weighted, the tie in with slack(kind of the reverse of #3), as a final check BEFORE unclipping in #4. Petzl's guide is a good how to, but I really dislike their leaving out the check step.

Mark Nelson wrote:HHS, a more apt term being Harness Suspension Trauma, is simply not proven for climbers at this time.

Harness hang syndrome, suspension trauma, orthostatic syndrome or intolerance are some of the terms in use. Some climbing texts that take note of it are

Climbing Self-Rescue. They say (without details) that the syndrome "has indeed occurred in climbing situations."

books.google.com/books?id=J…

Mountaineering Handbook, "A person hanging immobile constitutes a serious medical emergency and must be attended to promptly, or he'll die within 30 minutes."

books.google.com/books?id=3…

No one cares much about climbers and cavers, but once fall arrest harnesses became a feature of the workplace, much more attention has been given to orthostatic syndrome. One of the most influential reports can be downloaded as .pdf,

Harness suspension: review and evaluation of existing information, Paul Seddon

hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf…

Among the many tests and incidents involving climbers (many of which are irrelevant to current concerns because they occurred before harnesses) Seddon remarks,

"This study concluded that hanging vertically in a harness could cause loss of consciousness without prior trauma or blood loss. It further concluded that an unconscious climber who remains vertical is in danger of brain damage and eventual death from reduced blood flow to the brain within four to six minutes of fainting."

From OSHA
osha.gov/dts/shib/shib03240…

"Prolonged suspension from fall arrest systems can cause orthostatic intolerance, which, in turn, can result in serious physical injury, or potentially, death. Research indicates that suspension in a fall arrest device can result in unconsciousness, followed by death, in less than 30 minutes."

From Responses to OSHA bulletin
elcosh.org/en/document/679/…

"The article stated that suspension over 5 minutes in a safety harness can cause death, citing Paul Seddon’s report to the Health and Safety Executive (UK) entitled, Harness Suspension: Review and Evaluation of Existing Information. The UK report clearly documents the existence and importance of suspension trauma, but also shows that the related risks stem from motionless suspension (e.g., worker is unconscious or incapacitated) and not from suspension in the normal course of work...Several deaths that occurred in caving and mountaineering are discussed in the report, but many of these had additional contributing factors such as prolonged suspension (several hours), harsh environment, and lack of harness."

From Will my Safety Harness Save My Life? OHS Magazine
elcosh.org/en/document/678/…

"Rescue must be initiated by reaching the worker and getting, at the very least, a loop strap to the worker so he can stand and take some of the pressure off his harness and move the muscles in his legs...Rescue must be practiced on a regular basis so workers can effect a safe and efficient rescue within a very short time (15 minutes maximum)."

Note: concern in this report about placing a victim of orthostatic syndrome in the prone position has been challenged by subsequent research, see ropeworks.com/s.nl/it.I/id.…

These are just a small sampling of the available literature. I'm not sure exactly what Mark means by "proven" in his comments above, but it seems beyond question to me that an unconscious hanging climber is in mortal danger.

Again, I mention this in the context of the increasingly pervasive reliance on prussik backups, typically without any consideration of what might happen should these backups perform as intended. I really think the entire process needs to be rethought, but it is also pretty clear that almost no one agrees.

Thank you everyone for the great insight, very helpful. The consensus is definitely to tie the 'third hand' below the rappel device. I appreciate the explanations of why this is the preferred method.

JPVallone wrote: You just got an answer from J. Long, and The Man himself, C. Luebben. So why would you turn to this community for a second opinion? Makes no sense.

If you read my initial question, you will see I was after an explanation of why one method is better than another, Advanced Rock Climbing does not provide detail into when and why one may be more applicable over the other.

Mark Cushman wrote:Tie an autoblock (not prusik) on the brake side attached to your leg loop. Extending the device is OK in some circumstances (rapping with a haulbag or an injured person) but have you ever tried "jugging" back up the line when you need some extra tension? It's near impossible with the belay device at your chin.

Point well taken, Mark. But you don't need to extend all the way to your chin. Ten to twelve inches is about all that is needed. Besides, too long an extension makes it hard to negotiate the lips of overhangs. Of course, the autoblock has to be the right length. (Four feet is a bit short, but workable. Five feet is plenty.) In the situation you describe the lower the device the better, but you can trade off.

One of the things the "third hand" does is to provide protection against failure of the primary connection to the rope (through the rappel device). I've never heard of a rappel device breaking, but there has been at least one fatality (described on the UIAA site) due to a Figure Eight device breaking the locker open. I've seen people, maybe a little distracted and nervous at the time, rig up their devices in ways that would have resulted in catastrophe if not caught in time.

In such cases a connection to the leg loop is much less than ideal.

Also, one reason I almost always use the "third hand" is that it would help me in case rock hit me or I hit the rock and as a result I had a broken (or otherwise unusable) arm. With the third hand's help, and both regular hands below the belay device to begin with, I believe I'd be able to continue the descent in at least some cases.

Other annotations:

- The third hand is handy when rigging the device because you can pull up some slack through the autoblock and not have to fight with the weight of the rope(s) while threading them through the device.

- On multi-pitch rappels, the third hand provides an easy way for the first rappeller to retain control of the ropes while the second comes down, especially if the rappel stations are not on one plumb line.

- A little helpful trick is to connect the autoblock cord to the locker with a clove hitch so that the knot stays close to the biner.

- The main disadvantage of the third hand is that it reduces the climbler's ability to modulate the braking by changing the angle of the rope at the device. On the other hand, the autoblock adds to the friction. Experience teaches what works well with which ropes and devices.

DEF wrote:I was taught to never rap from your belay loop, to extend through your tie in points by multiple climbing partners who are also certified guides/instructors. I wasn't given a reason why it is safer, just told that it is. Maybe this is incorrect or overkill, but at the same time, you don't tie in to your belay loop to climb... (and yes, I realize that you would never generate the force of a lead fall when you rap)

"I was never taught...(and) I wasn't given a reason why it is safer, just told that it is."

Harness design and best-practices have changed over time. Manufacturers now state that the belay/rappel loop should be used to rappel from. And it's not because it's "overkill" to do otherwise, but because of the risk of carabiner loading as mentioned in the response immediately below yours.

...I was after an explanation of why one method is better than another...quote>

An excellent question to ask for as long as you keep climbing.

-sp wrote: Manufacturers now state that the belay/rappel loop should be used to rappel from. And it's not because it's "overkill" to do otherwise, but because of the risk of carabiner loading as mentioned in the response immediately below yours.

Just to clarify, I do not put a biner through my tie in points, I extend my device with a cordelette or sling through my tie in points. Not that it matters at this point, I was just providing my .02 about how I was taught.