Improper Gri Gri Use

Well, it's that time of year again and after all the nice warm weather I'm back in the gym. Our gym sports two nice new holes in the mat from someone who was dropped from the ceiling awhile back. Being in the confined space with so many climbers I'm taking some time to observe how different people are belaying. Many are using proper techniques with their devices which is encouraging, but there are a few startling examples of incompetence. I observed one climber who practically lives in our gym belaying one day firmly grasp the Gri Gri with their hand holding the cam lever down, never touching the rope with their brake hand & pulling out slack for the leader as they climbed, who unbeknownst to them was actually free soloing the route.

So, after making these observations I decided to do some testing. Also, since my 11-year old frequently belays me I thought it was a good idea to see how the device performs in various scenarios. I sent the youngster up to the first clip and then had him downclimb to the point he was willing to jump to the floor. I then held the Gri Gri in various approved and not recommended positions and had him let go.

The results of the tests are as follows:
* Using the Gri gri as recommended worked well, the falling climber stopped almost immediately. See Petzl's website for their instructions on the two ways to use the device.
* Holding the Gri Gri with the hand around the device and fingers over the cam lever and no brake hand resulted in the climber DECKING EVERY TIME. If you hold the Gri Gri this way and use your second hand to pull rope out of it the climber is OFF BELAY - PERIOD. It was amazing how well the rope slid right thru the device. This particular style of belaying is the easiest for the belayer as the Gri Gri won't annoying lock when you are trying to feed rope and the cam lever provides a great place to park one of your hands.
* Other not specifically recommended methods, but not quite to the wrap the hand around the Gri Gri holding it open with no brake hand method, including no hands on anything (rope or Gri Gri)seemed to still work with some level of slippage, but the device still locked. I'm not going to belay that way, nor allow anyone to belay me that way, but it does show some margin for error.

I found this experiment insightful and beneficial as I now have a better idea of how the device works. It's easy to do in a gym with a padded floor that someone can easily jump to from 4 or 5 feet up if the device doesn't lock and the configuration to have an overhead clip with open space below. I'd be interested to know if anyone has done any similar tests, tested their belayers, or has other experiences to share. It amazes me how sloppy some people are with such and important task. I personally think that a Gri Gri can add a lot of safety to belaying so long as the belayer doesn't go out of their way to defeat the device.

So you're saying that if I hold the locking cam open and don't keep a break hand on the rope, the GriGri just lets rope slip through?

I thought about posting something similar last week. I decked from the top of an overhanging 28 wall at our local climbing gym, after my belayer threaded the rope through his grigri backwards.

I guess it was not my day to bite it; I walked away without any injury. When I filled out the incident report afterwards, there was a question about if/how the climber might have contributed to the fall. At the time, I said, "No." After sleeping on it though, I would say I was partly to blame, by not checking my belayer's setup. You can rest assured I will be looking things over in the future and if I see someone not using their grigri to my liking I am going to ask them to use my extra ATC. I used to think this would be a dickish thing to do, but I also have an 11 yr old and I would like to climb with him for years to come.

I am trying to understand what you did, and what you are trying to test. During the second method where the climber "decked", did you try to move your hand to the brake strand to prevent them from hitting the floor? I think that it is intended that the belayer pays enough attention to perform this action before the climber decks.

I am not condoning this method, but rather just trying to understand what you were doing. I believe that almost everyone (and I hope everyone) understands that if you hold the GriGri open, it will not catch a falling climber.

Elijah - In the test method #2 I held onto the cam and made no attempt to move my hands. Obviously if the belayer is paying attention and moves their hand after they notice the climber falling, then there is the opportunity to change the configuration on the device and catch the climber. Watch people in the gym or outside and see if they keep their eye on the climber 100% of the time. My bet is that you will find almost no-one doing that. So, if you hold the Gri Gri open and the climber falls and you're not paying attention they will deck. Why intentionally defeat the device and take the person off-belay to feed rope when you don't need to?

Ryan - You are correct & it slips thru fast. Try it out for yourself and see if you still want to belay/be belayed that way.

Bill - The good thing about the Gri Gri is that it is easy to see if it is threaded backwards unlike the Cinch, but you have to do the system check. Glad you're OK!

Perhaps you should test other device for comparison sake. I think every one would be interested in the result of what would happen if you don't use your brake hand on other devices and bypass any designed safety features.

I would figure you would just deck all the time, but best for some responsible person to test this all out, using their child as the test dummy.

I give the rope above the Cinch a yank before my climber ever leaves the ground. If it's threaded right it locks. Having my brake hand on the rope at all times and not having to ever pinch the cam "open" are just some of the reasons I like the Cinch way better than a GriGri for lead belay.

Tzilla Rapdrilla wrote:Elijah - In the test method #2 I held onto the cam and made no attempt to move my hands. Obviously if the belayer is paying attention and moves their hand after they notice the climber falling, then there is the opportunity to change the configuration on the device and catch the climber. Watch people in the gym or outside and see if they keep their eye on the climber 100% of the time. My bet is that you will find almost no-one doing that. So, if you hold the Gri Gri open and the climber falls and you're not paying attention they will deck. Why intentionally defeat the device and take the person off-belay to feed rope when you don't need to?

This is what I thought, and I have, unfortunately, found that this argument does not convince people to change the way they belay. I am just guessing, but I believe it is because they don't appreciate how quickly things can go wrong with a small misstep. I am curious about a test where you are using the failed method and try to catch the climber. How much further do they fall? What if you are talking to someone while belaying?

In a perfect world, I would like to see someone set up a drop test system where the falling object could hit the ground. One person drops the object and the other person tries to catch it using any number of belay techniques.

Note: I use the new GriGri method and really like it.

Chris Plesko wrote:I give the rope above the Cinch a yank before my climber ever leaves the ground. If it's threaded right it locks. Having my brake hand on the rope at all times and not having to ever pinch the cam "open" are just some of the reasons I like the Cinch way better than a GriGri for lead belay.

x2, I love the cinch, best belay device for lead belaying.

Tzilla Rapdrilla wrote:. Obviously if the belayer is paying attention and moves their hand after they notice the climber falling, then there is the opportunity to change the configuration on the device and

it baffles me to hear how much time people think they have to react to a falling climber.

A free falling body falls 16 ft in one second. 64 ft in two seconds. How much time do you really think you have?

Sorry I dropped you dude. I was changing my configuration!

lived and climbed for 20 yrs. with a sticht plate.( pre internet) and doubt if I would ever have heard so much grumbling about failures as I do today with grigris. It's all about paying attention and using each and every belay device properly. Simple as that. If it's too complicated, don't use a gri gri.

Woodchuck ATC wrote:lived and climbed for 20 yrs. with a sticht plate.( pre internet) and doubt if I would ever have heard so much grumbling about failures as I do today with grigris. It's all about paying attention and using each and every belay device properly. Simple as that. If it's too complicated, don't use a gri gri.

Really all there is to know. Be competent, pay attention.

It was interesting to see the difference in how much you grab the cam makes in the performance of the Gri Gri. The further up the lever you grab it the more likely it will be for the device to remain in the open position. Also, wrapping your hand around the whole Gri Gri really makes sure the device fails. If I held the rope and put my thumb on the cam, the cam just lifted shut, so the action of holding the rope made a difference.

Next time I think I'll mess around with my ATC in a similar fashion - the yougster loves to jump off of stuff.

It is helpful to learn how a belay device fails and works even for those who pay attention so you'll know more about the device you use.

Anyone want to admit using the sh*tty technique of 'Holding the Gri Gri with the hand around the device and fingers over the cam lever and no brake hand..'?

Okay, I'll be the first.. But I'm know I'm not the only one. Honestly, I read the petzl sign demonstrating the new technique and it looked great. But I just haven't gotten around to switching to it. It's on my list.. really..

That said, my experience with the crap technique has been 100% successful. I've belayed hundreds and maybe thousands of climbs using this technique and it's never failed. When the leader falls, the belay device pops out of my hand and locks automatically and I can grab the brake strand. I've also tried to get the system to fail using 'test dummies' similar to what tzilla did. What I found was if you're more than 10 feet off the ground, the leader was always caught safely. I know it's a crap technique and we should always keep our mitts on the brake strand but it always works. Anyone want to comment on that?

Dan
I think that you are just lucky so far. I believe everyone should adopt the new gri gri technique or use an atc. I totally agree with Tod that way too many people are wrapping their hand around the device, possibly nullifying its purpose. I am able to use the gri gri a high percentage of the time without even physically touching the device. I have the climbers end of the rope in my left hand and am feeding rope out with my right hand. If I feed rope before the climbers starts tugging on the line, I never even need to touch the device.

Just my 2 cents.

I try never to lead belay with a gri gri, but the times I have, I will hold the brake hand and just put my thumb on the back of the cam and press lightly when I need to feed rope. If the leader falls, I just take my thumb away and because I am holding the brake end the cam engages just fine, I am also careful not to press hard enough with my thumb or grab the entire device. Either way, I prefer a gri gri for top roping, everybody should learn to use an ATC or similar passive device properly and actually pay attention their friend on the sharp end. I see people belay really casually ALL THE TIME and it is pretty scary how an 'auto locking' device can make people pass off the personal responsibility of belaying onto their belay device.

Using a Gri Gri, or a Cinch in my opinion just promotes a bad technique for belaying and is a lazy way of ensuring you dont drop your partner.

Dave-O, I could be mistaken but I think you missed my point. By reporting my success with the technique I believe beyond a doubt that I am not 'lucky' and that the technique really does work. That's kinda what I was hoping people would comment on.

On the other hand, Dave-O, maybe you're saying that I'm just an accident waiting to happen and that 'luck' is merely probability taken personally? If so, what kind of probability are we talking?

Oh yeah, I'm re-reading my previous post and it sounds like I walk around all day with my hand on the cam and a constant reliance on cat-like reflexes to seize the brake strand at the last moment... This isn't really the case. I just belay like a lot of other people at the gym who hold the cam down to feed out slack and then hold the brake strand for the rest of the time.

Ryan N wrote:Using a Gri Gri, or a Cinch in my opinion just promotes a bad technique for belaying and is a lazy way of ensuring you dont drop your partner.

Have you used a Cinch Ryan? Or watched Mal's video? In no way does it promote bad technique. Your hand never leaves the break strand and I can throw out rope to a clipping leader or pull extra rope back in easier than with an ATC. And I used ONLY an ATC for the better part of my first 2 years climbing before picking up the Cinch. I actually prefer the Cinch by far now in many but not all situations.

Chris Plesko wrote: Have you used a Cinch Ryan? Or watched Mal's video? In no way does it promote bad technique. Your hand never leaves the break strand and I can throw out rope to a clipping leader or pull extra rope back in easier than with an ATC. And I used ONLY an ATC for the better part of my first 2 years climbing before picking up the Cinch. I actually prefer the Cinch by far now in many but not all situations.

Wow we cant agree on anything can we...LOL

Dan, I think that is the exact point that Tod is trying to make. You belay just like a lot of other people at the gym who hold the cam down to feed out slack... I beleive that Tod is trying to point out that YES - you (and all the others that belay thay way) ARE accidents waiting to happen...

(My post is not intended to be a personnal attack just a clarification)