New Trad climber, what's in your multi-pitch pack?

Steve Pulver wrote: I started using a 5 mm, 70m tag line 3 months ago. This setup has worked ok so far, but it appears that people here are recommending a larger diameter?

Brian pretty much hit it on the head. Low margin and the 5mm cord isn't the best for cutting and leaving as anchor material. Honestly though, while the margin is a bit tight in terms of tensile strength, if you and your partner are maxing your collective pull strength on the cord, then the rope above has clearly gotten seriously wedged in a constriction and you've got bigger problems to deal with. At this point the 5mm, 6mm, titan cord, they all suck because you likely won't have a prussic that can bite on it (to slide up with you as you climb) and it most likely will break (or you will) in the event of you pealing and then dynamically weighting it via some of the gear you placed along the way.

But, that's the tradeoff of going with such a light setup. You have to be more vigilant about where you set up rap anchors, maybe shortening some (and leaving gear) to avoid rope hangup problems.

Another reason people go with the larger diameter cords is simply because they are easier on the hands to pull. Those 5mm cords can feel like a mafia piano wire in one's hands when tensioned tight.

The lightest dynamic twin is currently 37g/m.... getting close.

jmeizis wrote:For everybody suggesting two headlamps, what's your reasoning. I think I may be a bit biased from leading night hiking trips but I can only think of another headlamp as a backup. Obviously the weight is negligible, just curious the thinking. Rappelling: Send the person with the headlamp down first. Any person who's rappelled a couple times should be able to feel if they're setup correctly or they could even get setup on the rope above the other climber before they go so there's no question. The first person can give them a fireman's to save time putting on an autoblock. Walk Off: The person with the headlamp route finds and occasionally shines the light back if there's scrambling or downclimbing that needs to be done. Don't put the person with the headlamp in the back it just puts shadows on the person's feet who doesn't have a headlamp. Generally if you're coming down in the dark I feel like you already screwed up somewhere beforehand. While I think having a GPS can be a nice backup, I think it puts one in the wrong mindset for getting things done in the light.. Instead of feeling obligated to get up and down before dark when you don't have it you feel like getting up and down in the light is good but if not then there's always the GPS. Once again I might be biased because I've never had good luck with GPS working (batteries, cloud cover, lack of experience with a particular model). I feel like you have to KISS or pay by carrying around extra junk. Coming down in the dark safely is a slow going process. That's why you cut weight and climb fast, as to avoid the slow process of finding your way in the dark. I haven't had to do any RR descents in the dark but from what I've seen they aren't too bad. If you keep an eye on the topography you can generally find where you're going even if you do wander off the beaten track. That's my limited experience in RR though. I too will admit to not really likeing the tag line method. It's lighter but lacks versatility and I find it to be a bit of a pain. I prefer doubles. The single I carry now (Nano 9.2) plus a 60M six mil cord weighs in about 10 lbs. Sterling's 8.4mm doubles come in at 11.9 lbs. with a difference of not even two pounds you get an extra rope that you can do more than just rappel on.

"Oh, I thought you brought the headlamp?"
"But I thought you were bringing it this time!"

If you just bring 1 headlamp and it dies then you have NO headlamp.
I'd had various partners' headlamps die multiple times.
So instead of sleeping in your bed you get to sleep 45 minutes away from your car because both of you were unprepared.

Bring 2.

andrewc wrote: "Oh, I thought you brought the headlamp?" "But I thought you were bringing it this time!"

I guess I just have a better sense of direction and better communication skills than most people's partners.

jmeizis wrote:For everybody suggesting two headlamps, what's your reasoning...

My reasoning is in-line with yours: that headlamps are used as a backup. But I see no reason not to have each climber carry their own. Getting down in the dark or walking off is certainly possible, but given that the size and weight of a useful headlamp is negligible and considering how less stressful it is when no one is doing anything by feel, it simply doesn't make any sense not to have one.

Alright after reading a lot of the great replies posted here and searching the depths of the interweb I think I've figured out what I'd like to try for our february trip. The first thing is to pick up a decent pack. I'm going to check out the petzl bug tomorrow and a few others in the same size range. It'll be loaded with the following:

• Petzl E-light (or 2) we got stuck with 1 light and it wasn't fun.
• Belay jacket in compression pouch
• knife
• phone
• 1L water in a bladder
• 2 cliff bars
• descent shoes

Which brings up another question. In searching for a pair of super light weight descent shoes (my climbing shoes won't do it, a lot of the RR descents are said to take 1-2 hours)has anyone ever tried descending in Vibram Five Fingers? They pack small and are very light, and I've ran up to 5 miles in my current pair without problem.

We're also going to bring another approach bag that will have more water, food, GPS, an emergency blanket and two main head lamps in it that we'll either leave at the base or where the approach trail splits with the return path. This way as long as we make it to the base of the climb or approach trail before complete darkness we'll be good to go. We hiked almost 3 miles out of our way last trip when we got stuck in darkness with 1 headlamp and the weight of my GPS for the hike in/out would have been well worth it had I packed it, it's coming from now on.

I think I've also decided to pick up two 70m 9.4ish ropes over going with doubles. The 9.4's will be great for sport climbing which I do a lot more of than multi-pitch and picking up a 7mm tagline is pretty cheap if I want to go that route and leave one rope in the car. We'll probably just climb the 9.4's as doubles or bring one rope and a tagline in case of emergency depending on whether or not we're rapping or planning on hiking down.

I really appreciate all the advice in this thread and please keep it coming if anyone wants to add or comment on what I've just posted.

-Nick

Nick Mardirosian wrote:I think I've also decided to pick up two 70m 9.4ish ropes over going with doubles. The 9.4's will be great for sport climbing which I do a lot more of than multi-pitch

There's good reasons NOT to get 70m ropes to use as doubles for multi-pitch. I'll reiterate what's already been said and add my own input:

• Extra rope management headaches at the belays.
• Extra weight.
• Potential hazards for the second. If the intial moves on a pitch are hard and the second takes a fall, that fall will be longer due to rope stretch. And that in turn could mean your partner breaking her ankle on a ledge, or hanging in space because you couldn't take her tight.
• Communication. What you gain in being able to lead longer pitches or combining pitches could be offset by no longer being able to hear or be heard by your partner. I consider that pretty important on the long Red Rock routes.
• If you aren't routinely combining pitches (as noted above, there's good reasons not to, and sometimes it just isn't practical), the extra rope is a waste. And if you are routinely combining pitches, 60m ropes are usually plenty.

As for using the singles for sport climbing, that's good to have the double-duty option -- but where are you sport climbing that you'd need a 70m rope?

So as someone else said, I'd stick with 60m ropes if I were you.

JL

If there's a walk off I always carry a small pack. For my shoes. I wear size 15.

The ropes are not just for multi pitch guys. We used one 70m rope/one 60m last time and I didn't feel the extra 30' was an issue at all with rope management, it would have been nicer if they were of equal length though. I live in Chicago, there isn't much local climbing so having 5 different ropes is not very useful for me, my current rope is a 60m and needs to be replaced soon anyways. I think having a 70m would be nice for any instance where I run into some longer climbs. I've done a few 110'ish feet sport routes at RRG already where the 60m barely made it. Maybe I'll buy one 60m and one 70m. Then depending on the route we can climb with either the 60 or 70 or one and a tagline. Buying double ropes is not necessary for any of the "local" climbing areas (devils lake, RRG, Jackson Falls) and would result in me carrying MORE gear everywhere else which is the opposite of what I'm looking to do.

My climbing buddy (a guy btw not "her" lol) won't rap on different diameter ropes tied together and is a little uneasy on the method described in the petzl catalog with the tagline because he doesn't have any experience with it. If we get the opportunity we're going to mess around with it before february but there aren't many places local to do that around here unless I set it up on the roof of an apartment building.

The five fingers are great, the model I have (KSO?) are pretty rugged on the toes and I've done some hiking at devils lake with them in combination with running a full summer in them and no I've never had a problem with toe injury. Hiking down in my climbing shoes for that distance is not an option. I wouldn't be able to walk for the rest of the week.

JLP what would I do with that single rope as thin as a double rope when I'm not climbing multi pitch (twice a year maybe?)? Sounds like a waste of money. We're not climbing hard, just enjoying some easy multi pitch climbing to experience something different than all the local climbing.

Thanks again for all the comments,

Nick

1 rope, no pack, one water bottle to share, 1 power bar to share,

Summit or Plummit :-) There is no down, only up!

one thing that i started using several years ago is approach flip-flops. i'm totally not kidding. i bought a decent pair of flip-flops, like maybe som reef smoothies or something, around 25 bucks. then i resoled them with stealth dot rubber. i was able to hike long distances and up-climb/down-climb 4th class and low 5th class with them. these things saved a huge amount of commotion on my harness and are a lot lighter. i highly recommend them.

other than that, a lot of good advice in this thread. when i bring a light shell jacket, i usually stuff it down the back of my pants. it makes my ass look bigger, but it also is one less thing swinging around on my harness.

regarding a light pull cord versus second lead rope, i would go with a skinny second lead rope. more versatile, less to tangle, etc. one trick that i use with my wife, if the raps are just a little too long to do with a sing 70m rope (say 140 foot or so), i lower her first, then she uses her webolette (and/or slings) to lengthen her attachment to the rope, and then i counter-rap the other side. this works great because you get twice the rope stretch plus the extension. keep in mind though, if you make an error doing this, you will almost certainly die.

Nick Mardirosian wrote:The ropes are not just for multi pitch guys. We used one 70m rope/one 60m last time and I didn't feel the extra 30' was an issue at all with rope management

Nick Mardirosian wrote:Petzl E-light (or 2) we got stuck with 1 light and it wasn't fun.

Maybe if you had 60m rope(s) you would've not gotten benighted. If I were you, I'd just bring a single 60m rope and either walk-off or learn to simul-rap.

Also, check out Patagonia Houdini - worth every penny. I carry it on my harness and it comes out on belays. Pretty much down to low 40s, my system consists of a good merino baselayer and a Houdini.

If you're only climbing low 5th class, check out Sportiva Gandas - they come with extra insoles that you can insert for a tighter fit on the climb and remove for the approach/descent.

but where are you sport climbing that you'd need a 70m rope?

Seems like just about everywhere these days.

Nick Mardirosian wrote:My climbing buddy (a guy btw not "her" lol) won't rap on different diameter ropes tied together and is a little uneasy on the method described in the petzl catalog with the tagline because he doesn't have any experience with it.

Sounds like the best way to speed up your climbing and learn to climb with the appropriate amount of crap would be to climb with multiple experienced people.
Not a guy that "won't rap on different diameter ropes" for some reason.

i actually feel more comfortable on 4th class and low 5th class in my flip flops than i do in my clunky wooden dutch boy approach shoes. if you do some training, you can easily do a mile approach at around freezing temps with flip flops. i used to wear mine all winter long and it made my feet pretty immune to cold. the flip (flop) side of this is that when you get in a hot tub it hurts like a mother!

Nick Mardirosian wrote: I think having a 70m would be nice for any instance where I run into some longer climbs. I've done a few 110'ish feet sport routes at RRG already where the 60m barely made it. Maybe I'll buy one 60m and one 70m. Thanks again for all the comments, Nick

I'd always go with longer ropes...you can turn 25+ pitches into less than 20 on climbs like Resolution Arete in Red Rocks. If you lose 5 mins on every belay switchover, pretty soon you are talking an hour or two (stole this idea from an old big walls book)...

something like the Nose on the Cap boiled down to 19 pitches iirc- qutie a few full 60ms , instead of 30-odd...(did it before 70ms, had to steeeeeeeeretch to tie knots a few times or have 2nd break down belay, a total pain). We topped in a blizzard (had just started), but if it had been even an hour later it would have been way worse. There have been several fatal accidents right at the top in similar circumstance...

Plus like you said, RRG or NRG, or (out west) ORG, 70m could be fairly mandatory on some of the newer routes. I have seen several people dropped off the end of the rope at a crag like Twall where supposedly you "don't need a 70m" (belayer standing too far back, trying to deal with fighting dogs, general ineptitude--no knots in the end).

sounds like alias is right, lets stop arguing , he seems to know everything.

dolgio wrote: Maybe if you had 60m rope(s) you would've not gotten benighted. If I were you, I'd just bring a single 60m rope and either walk-off or learn to simul-rap. Also, check out Patagonia Houdini - worth every penny. I carry it on my harness and it comes out on belays. Pretty much down to low 40s, my system consists of a good merino baselayer and a Houdini. If you're only climbing low 5th class, check out Sportiva Gandas - they come with extra insoles that you can insert for a tighter fit on the climb and remove for the approach/descent.

Are you even reading what you're typing? I said the 60/70m combo was NO PROBLEM. The reason for our lengthened exit hike was because a headlamp died and we lost the trail, it had nothing to do with the ropes.

Anyways I see this thread is going downhill. I really appreciate all the sincere replies. It seems climbing is filled with a bunch of type A personalities also and if you don't decide to do it their way someone takes offense lol. Relax.. it isn't that serious. =)

Nick Mardirosian wrote: Are you even reading what you're typing? I said the 60/70m combo was NO PROBLEM. The reason for our lengthened exit hike was because a headlamp died and we lost the trail, it had nothing to do with the ropes.

Nick, may be you should go back and re-read all what's been said. A lot of good advice by people who climb and have been climbing a lot. I meant that if you had shorter ropes or just one rope, your belay transitions would have been way quicker, and maybe you would have hiked out while there was still light. Pulling the exra 10m of slack costs minutes, and if you're not swinging leads and are not careful at flipping the rope, reflaking the extra 10m costs you more time. Minutes add up on long multi-pitch climbs. If you ask for an advice, learn to take it.

dolgio wrote: Nick, may be you should go back and re-read all what's been said. A lot of good advice by people who climb and have been climbing a lot. I meant that if you had shorter ropes or just one rope, your belay transitions would have been way quicker, and maybe you would have hiked out while there is still light. If you ask for an advice, learn to take it.

Sometimes it's hard to interpret people over the internet. That thought never came to my mind and although I don't think the difference in rope lengths slowed us down any I'll take it into consideration. I think this thread is getting a bit off topic. I started the thread to get an idea of what everyone else carries on multi-pitch climbs. It seems when we started out we were way over loaded. There's still a few things I'd like to try out but I think we'll have slimmed down quite a bit. I was bored at work and I weighed some things out. The total pack weight with water, food, descent shoes, belay jacket, food, extra cord/rap rings, phone, knife, headlamp weighs right around 10 lbs. Any other adjustments we'll probably make on the spot or as the route calls for.

Nick