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Can you use a rap ring/decender ring as an emergency belay or rap device

Original Post
DBarton · · CENTENNIAL, CO · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 105

I was just curious if anyone had ever tried to use a rap ring to belay or rap with (in emergency situations). The size looks ok for it (depending on the model). and if you had nothing else...why not. Let me know.

T-Bob · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 50

#1 learn the Muenter as a back up. I've used it as a primary and a backup for more than 2 decades depending on what I've had available. That being said, think of any sticht plate type device as an aperature device. Whith that outlook, I've messed around with all sorts of gear on my rack to create aperature devices. I've used a link of chain and the ring on an old ring angle, even tried the "ports" on a large camalot (that didn't work so well). An understanding of how things operate is key to improvisation. Additionally, look into what folks have used and improvised ahead of us is key insight and fodder of our own improvisation.

Mess with as much as can think of and test it with whatever you have availlable prior to the bad day.

good luck out there,
T-Bob

Avery N · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 650

Seriously? Do you enjoy Russian Roulette, too?

Munter. Period.

Avery N · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 650
John Wilder wrote: whatever, its a forged aluminum ring thats rated to 22kn pulled in any direction- thats plenty safe for using as a rap device. i do seem to recall that itd be tight on two lines...i used it for a single line rap, if i recall correctly.
Sure, 'Pulled'. You're not 'rapping' the ring in pure tension (which is likely what that rating specifies), but instead applying things like bending moments to the ring.

Would it work with out failing? Sure, probably so.

But why bother thinking about and testing this stuff when you know there's a simple, proven backup method that won't fail, for the once-in-ten-year event when you drop your belay device and don't have the right rap ring, anyhow?

I'm out.
J.B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 150

When would you need to belay/rap with a rap ring in an "emergency" where you couldn't use a munter?

EDIT: Oh, I know!...Never!

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

Der Munter mitt foto:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munte…

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

i've always used a biner brake setup if somebody else needed my rap device. i would also use the solid aluminum or steel(not the rolled as wilder points out, it is hollow and you would burn through it pretty quick). i've used the munter before, which is ok for one rap. however, if you are doing a bunch of raps, the munter will make a clusterfvck of a rope tangle in a jiffy, due to twist.

joshf · · missoula, mt · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 790
Avery N wrote:Seriously? Do you enjoy Russian Roulette, too? Munter. Period.
+1
Richard Radcliffe · · Erie, CO · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 225
slim wrote:i've always used a biner brake setup if somebody else needed my rap device.
Works great with old ovals. Does it work OK with newer more shapely 'biners?
JPVallone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 195

A small tip for rapping with munter.

if you find yourself rapping on a munter, just be the one to go first, and hopefully the person going next has a regular atc style device. It helps take twists out before pulling the rope, just make sure the last person to rap is not the one on the Munter.

Make sure the brake strands run across the spine of the biner and not the gate, , in the wrong direction the gate could actually get spun open.

I suggest friction hitch back ups because you are losing the true braking position of the munter when rappelling with it, unless your holding the brake over your head or up and out above the hitch the whole time.

David Appelhans · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 410
Richard Radcliffe wrote: Works great with old ovals. Does it work OK with newer more shapely 'biners?
It works well with the new biners that have fairly straight spines. I used it the other day with trango wiregates and it was much nicer than twisting the rope with the Munter.
JPVallone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 195
JPVallone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 195
Alias wrote: You haven't spent much time in the alpine if you thing that a situation like this could never come up. Crazy shit happens up there all the time
Sounds epic up there?
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

richard, if you only have small biners and a somewhat fat rope it can be a pain. i've used several different types of biners in one rig and it has worked ok. if you have big ones handy it is helpful.

i've had to do this twice when my belay device loop broke while chimneying and twice when a partner dropped their device. one of these times was a buch of raps and it was pretty tedious...

Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872

I haven't tried it, but so long as you use one of the solid aluminum or stainless ones, I would think it would work well. I would have no worries about them breaking or wearing thru, but the amount of friction you get might not be great and fitting double ropes might be a problem. I'd use an autoblock below the device (brake hand) if I had it available (clipped to a leg loop). I'd also try and put a prussik above the device if there was any question of it's integrity, that way failure would not = death (or falling on an autoblock on a leg loop). If you could extend the device away on a sling and then use a prussik/autoblock below the device also attached to the belay loop, then you get the extra braking/control and safety if the device goes.

Derek W · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 20
David Barton wrote:I was just curious if anyone had ever tried to use a rap ring to belay or rap with (in emergency situations). The size looks ok for it (depending on the model). and if you had nothing else...why not. Let me know.
I have used it just messing around, but like others have said, the munter is my preferred backup. Besides, a company has made a bailout system for firefighters that uses a munter on a rap ring as the sole connection and this has been studied and tested. However, I unfortunately don't know who's make ring it is...
Derek W · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 20
JPVallone wrote:...unless your holding the brake over your head or up and out above the hitch the whole time.
which is how you are supposed to use it. You have more friction this way.
mark felber · · Wheat Ridge, CO · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 41

Munter hitch or hip belay to belay someone (Munter hitch would be first choice). Carabiner brake or Dulfersitz to rappel. Years ago I climbed with a Czech who carried two banana shaped locking carabiners that he used to rappel. He would put the carabiners end to end with the ends overlapping, and thread the rope through the entire affair. I've heard this called a "Columbia brake", but I don't think its done to often any more.

DBarton · · CENTENNIAL, CO · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 105
John Wilder wrote:can and have. just make sure you use the forged aluminum ones with the 22kn rating stamp on 'em- those rolled ones certainly wouldnt work.
Thanks, I actually have an SMI (i think) it is 34 Kn and a bit skinnier than than Omega rings. It allows a rope in, but just barely. The reason i asked is because when I saw the ring i thought that it would be a whole lot easier to rig and safer (for me) than using the Munter (it is essentially a plate belay device).

Thanks for the feedback, hope I never need to use it.
DBarton · · CENTENNIAL, CO · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 105
T-Bob wrote:#1 learn the Muenter as a back up. I've used it as a primary and a backup for more than 2 decades depending on what I've had available. That being said, think of any sticht plate type device as an aperature device. Whith that outlook, I've messed around with all sorts of gear on my rack to create aperature devices. I've used a link of chain and the ring on an old ring angle, even tried the "ports" on a large camalot (that didn't work so well). An understanding of how things operate is key to improvisation. Additionally, look into what folks have used and improvised ahead of us is key insight and fodder of our own improvisation. Mess with as much as can think of and test it with whatever you have availlable prior to the bad day. good luck out there, T-Bob
I love your creativity. You must be an engineer!

Dave
Tristan Burnham · · La Crescenta, CA · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 2,176

If you drop your ATC, you could just have your partner lower you with their atc and then they can rap normally. This would be a bitch and take awhile if you had to rap several times, but 1 or 2 pitches wouldn't be bad. Just make sure you get lowered through a biner or ring and not a sling or webbing.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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