Oak Creek Waterfall Area, Parking Area Rap Anchors Galore WTF!

Okay, so I am a patient man, and not by any means anti bolt, however I really need some feed back on this scenario-

A couple of weeks ago I noticed some glued in anchors just below the parking pullout for the Waterfall Area. There were 5 glue in bolts (2 on a basalt boulder, and 3 in the top of the short cliff of sandstone... I thought WTF? In a quizzical way...

I let it go as very strange... Today, however, we counted over 36!!!! bolts on top of the very small, sandy cliff over looking the creek, directly below the parking pullout. The purpose of some are beyond rational reasoning. At least nothing I can think of. I've never seen anything like this before.


Aside from some very selfish/lazy guiding efforts I can't possibly conceive of why any body would go through the effort of installing these anchors. More than half of them are very beefy glue ins- I don't like it one bit! Very uncool at the least!! Are we teaching 12 different people how to rappel all at the same time?




Like I said I am a patient man, and not anti bolt, but I believe this is out of hand. There are literally thousands of little scrappy twenty foot cliffs out there! Why choose the parking area for an extremely classic climbing area (where parking is limited)? I don't even want to think about what a non climbing public would think about this. Seriously! There is enough trash on that little beach as it is.

I am heading back in the morning, and I am planning on spraypainting the glue ins, and removing the hangers, painting the studs, and placing random rock/debri around all of it. I am thinking of getting hold of a cordless grinder and removing the glue ins as well... Like I said, I have just never seen anything like this, at such a transparent, roadside area, that is used by tourists, swimmers, fishing guides, you name it because when the "Waterfall" is running in the spring everyone wants to see it from the road, etc...

So, if anyone can offer anything I would be much obliged, and would fully consider any arguments as to why these cliff top anchors should remain, however, I see them as not only ludicrous, but as potentially very damaging to "climber's impacts" at a very close range to everything, but especially the Waterfall Area at large!

I know it is Halloween Weekend, but this IS scary.

JJ Schlick

Someone practicing?

Yeah those are sooo weird. There is a bunch off to the left as well...Same with the wall by the trail to grasshopper point. I'd be down for helping out taking them out and patching the holes.

What a waste of $$. But some nice hangers to claim when you pop them out someday soon.

Those have been there for a while. And they seem to be reproducing!

As far as I know, it is Ropes That Rescue that has installed those anchors. What they are using them for? I don't know. I agree though, it is super lame that they can get away with that... I guess that's what happens when you are buddy buddy with the forest service... you do what ever the hell you want. I've heard that one of the head guys (not mentioning names) for SAR down in Sedona has bolted the tops of a lot of boulders and short walls like this for his kids to top rope with. There are some at the Anvils where I was lucky enough to witness some teens top roping on a 10ft tall boulder using grigris (threaded wrong)for added 'safety' and with extensive multi point anchors made of a nest of webbing all clipped to bolts.

5 bolts in 3ft... seems like a SAR style anchor to me! This stuff makes me feel sick.

There are scattered bolts throughout the Anvils but mostly on more obscure 'easy to get to the top of' boulders... unless they have been removed. I haven't been there in a year or two though...

J.J.,

Thank you for posting this information. There has been an incredible amount of bolting going on in Oak Creek Canyon and Sedona. I heard about a similar "anchor" of 12-15 bolts / pins towards Grasshopper Point.

It is tough to imagine how a land manager could ignore such "improvements". I am not sure what the solution is other than talking with these persons, perhaps sharing our bolting knowledge and experiences in order that we all make the least impact. (And eventually removing most of the redundant anchors). As much as I have wanted to chop, chop, I am still in restraint.

It would really suck if some bolter got climbing somehow banned or restricted on the Sedona Ranger District of the Coconino National Forest. It could have regional or national ramifications.

There are two similar discussions going on threads on MP: "SAZ Etiquette". Jeremy you have pioneered many proud routes, it would be valuable to hear your experience / perspective on these threads.

I doubt it but could it possibly be for a slackline / Tyrolean?

Hey Jeremy-I went to the waterfall for the first time a couple of weekends ago, and noticed that craziness too-was hoping someone who knew the area better than I would bring it up-and your reaction was exactly as mine... a very big WTF???? I was bewildered, all those shiny bolts EVERYWHERE seemed very gratuitous and really made no sense. It's cool that you will do some clean up on this, let me know if you need any help. -Catherine

As much as I dream of anarchy, it could be we as a climbing community may need to aspire towards some standards so that we might all continue to enjoy the adventure. I hate to write those last few words about conformity, but it could be better than what big bro has to slap.

Here are links to two quite related recent discussions:

mountainproject.com/v/arizo…

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/arizona__new_mexico/southern_arizona_climbing_etiquette_part_ii_october_2010_publishing_routes/106896609

As a climbing culture it is important to hear as many voices as possible.
I will help clean up when the time comes Jeremy.

So I slept on it. And in the morning I came to the same conclusion. It is just a mess of bolts, and many, many of them defy common climber reasoning. Many of the placements are suspect (glue ins aside) with inches of exposed threads, wobbly studs, spinners, bolts placed in a perpendicular line to the cliff edge, and on and on. We pulled the hangers, and tried to paint/camo the rest. I mean 40 some bolts (we missed some in the original count) for rappelling purposes????

If, by some infinitesimal chance the hangers need to be replaced for a relations reason I will do that. However, I have been climbing almost twenty years, and new routing for nineteen, and I have never seen anything so outlandish. I mean never, and I have seen some messed up rigging.

Anyway, I would like more input if you all have anything more to add. Like I said before this type of installation job could have been done at any of thousands of other places throughout northern AZ without any body giving a care. If this is an SAR training site than I hope I never have to rely on them for a rescue...

It's a strange one for sure.

JJ

Is it possible they are part of an anchor for high line slack line?

Still lame, but one possible explanation....

even if ya chop em will still be damaged rock for what a slackline dosnt need that many bolts I like bolts but not at the overlook. catch the culprets & help em learn whats up cause nfs sees that shit I dont think they r gonna be happy about it. And start imposeing regulations
around like there arent enough already in that area sedona climbing access is a pain in the pocket book if its search n rescue could be I have seen them there myself. Id rip em a new one cause they r gonna mess it up for everyone. somebody has 2 much time n money on there hands

TDog wrote:HAHA Bolt Wars!! Climbers V. USFS and SEDONA FIRE Haha. Cracks me up that y’ll getting bent about a few little bit of metal next to a ROAD. How many hypocrites out there?? Raise your hand HIGH. Drive a car? Ski at a ski area? Clip a bolt climbing? Take 911 for granite? You should support rescuers and their training. You DO know someone that has had to use their services.

-1. There always one.....

JJ- good job and I fully agree. Good luck with a good outcome with the situation, youre doing the right thing. Thnx.

SAR or film shoot?

Thanks ya'll for the relevant information, and for staying mostly on track...

It is definitely not for a slackline. Thank god.

Still waiting to hear back from a couple of folks. Planning on doing a little more work with painting and camouflaging the glue ins.

You know, unfortunately bolts mean climbers. Period. Whether they are for slacklines, sport rappelling, "practicing?", movie crews, wreckage removal, SAR training, or whatever else, it is the climbing community which will receive the criticism and flack. And this particular web of anchor bolts not only have a high visibility in a well traveled space, but it is also where the bolts are found. If you find all of them, you really have to wonder about the knowledge some of these folks had. You can't just drill wherever the hell you want and expect it to be a good bolt just because it is a bolt. Again, all the studs, and glue ins are still there. And if you are driving by, take a quick look.

In my world the overwhelming presence of these anchors and the limited actual work time they receive is just too far out of balance to justify them. I can see leaving several sets for training purposes, but I also think that the folks who installed these bolts should know that they have made a tremendous impact, that isn't useful, or appreciated by many of us.

So, we will wait and see. Thanks again, JJ

Very well written JJ. Just to clarify for everyone, from your post the glue ins (gold hangered bolts) are still there and the other bolts simply need hangers if for some confounding reason some persons need to use these gross bolts in the future.

I know you have a tremendous respect for our rock resource. Thank you for taking the time out of your dreams to paint and otherwise hide this travesty in order to preserve access for us all.

I support this work.
Albert

One vote from Utah for CHOP ALL OF IT.
If anybody down there has any slight sense of ethics these bolts and glue-ins will vanish. If not, I'll do it if somebody is willing to pay for my transportation costs?????

I hope the person(s) resposible for this come forward. I thought we had some weird bolters in Utah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-tda

Thanks for your enthusiasm Stevie, but we have it under control.

Don't touch the bolts. This is a well know TR area for little people. Check out Tinytop-ropers.com. Some of these folks are tearing it up and make JJcrackmonkey look like an overweight ceo for a stilt company. That rock has some uber classics like: Itty Bitty Anchor Committee, Hanchoring for a Hard Line, Drill Baby Drill, ImPalin the Stone, Sport Shorts Just to name a few. According to the website they are doing a video short (no pun intended) for the reel rock film fest called Little Top Rope Tough Guys. I bet you didn't even think there might be someone shorter than you that may have an interest in climbing. So self centered.

Jeremy,

I have to agree with michael on this one.. I am of the understanding that these bolts were placed many years ago for rope rescue practice by Sedona Fire and that you should check with one of their batallion chiefs before you take any action.

As climbers we can all agree that this would be overkill for a climbing area however, this is not truely a climbing area. The tops of these ledges and their faces are bolted in a manner that allow rescuers to practice many different techniques and train with certain equipment that is neccesary to save or safely remove injured climbers or stuck tourists from the many natural hazards in our region. We hope to never be in need of rescue as climbers but, when we are in need and we do make that 911 call. We hope that the SAR unit that responds is well trained and has had every opportunity to practice that exact type of rescue before. It adds to your safety as the victim.

After many years of experience as a professional rescuer, in multiple regions, that the very inexperienced climbers and the very very experienced are the ones who get in trouble. If you are somewhere in the middle you are still cautious enough to stay out of trouble. At some point we all need a little help to get out of a tight spot, its how we learn as outdoorsman.

In rescue, we often have to build anchors that are more extensive in order to assure a safety factor that is well beyond what we would use when we are rock climbing. Additionally, every rescue system must be redundant and therefore requires at least two anchors. One for the load and one for the belay, hence the reason you may have found two anchors in such proximity.

Training areas like this one are much needed for the people who are called upon to perform the rescues in this area. If it does not interfere with a known route or even a well known climbing area, it seems that there is no harm done. I would be completely opposed to it if it violated an existing area or known route but it does not. Especially with its proximity to the roadway and all the runoff and debree that covers this area each year from flooding.

Respectfully and only my opinion.

Vic Walco

Sedona has a bit of a history of high end trad meets old west quasi-climbers. (see wind sand and stars for one example. other old bolt ladders are around.)

Seems like this unfortunate diSPLAY of hardware is perhaps two fronted, SAR training and quasi-climbing spray ?

One would hope that a private company that spends time training SAR types and professes to The ART of CLEAN RIGGING would instead choose a more subtle location? Doens't look like the The ART of CLEAN RIGGiNG includes the art of cleaning up though.

As suggested, a dialogue with RthatR and the local fire folks is probably the best thing you could at this point.

(JJ, just ignore and let TrollingDOGs lie. Without a bone to chew, he gets hungry and goes elsewhere to piss.)