who chopped turbo trad?

Word on the street is that Kevin has flown the coop. He never got around to climbing the route, or replacing the bolts.

I can not figure climbers out. they are very hypocritical. They say dont do anything unless you get the guy who put it up permission. Well if some moron puts up a climb and bolts gear he or she is already showing bad ethics and style. Then the bolt warriors and sport climbers throw a fit about damaging the rock and ethics. Well the ethics have always been to my knowledge that you dont drill bolts wear gear is available. Simple as that. So I agree with chopping all bolts that are put up unnecessarily. Lets see, when someone pounded pins in a route and then someone comes and frees it, it is no longer an aid climb and is not supposed to be pounded on anymore. So if you can lead a sport climb or such without the bolts then you have the right to clean it up.It seems to me the ethic in Tuscon is to bolt stuff up so you look like a swell guy when all theses folks can climb the route now. Oh so and so is such a kool guy, he puts up all these routes for us folks to climb. That is so good for your ego's isnt it boys. So common with the older climbers that want to be worshiped by the younger ones, especially the female ones. Lets give all these new climbers a chance. lets spoil them like kids that always get there way. They cry boo hoo i cant climb that Im scared. boo hoo. Oh okay Ill bolt up those cracks for u and also make it so you never have to build any anchors, I would hate for you folks to have to learn how to rock climb. I say leave the rock alone if you cant do it right. let someone else come along and do it with style. We dont need to make this sport accessible for everyone. Stay in the gym if you cant handle it. I have decided to not to climb many routes because of runouts and stuff. Thats the wayn it is. I dont stamp my feet and cry about and get people to make it easier for me. Its time to clean house in Tuscon. Hey lets let the sport stay in the gym, and leave the climbing to the people with integrity and grit.

dale polen wrote:I can not figure climbers out. they are very hypocritical. They say dont do anything unless you get the guy who put it up permission. Well if some moron puts up a climb and bolts gear he or she is already showing bad ethics and style. Then the bolt warriors and sport climbers throw a fit about damaging the rock and ethics. Well the ethics have always been to my knowledge that you dont drill bolts wear gear is available. Simple as that. So I agree with chopping all bolts that are put up unnecessarily. Lets see, when someone pounded pins in a route and then someone comes and frees it, it is no longer an aid climb and is not supposed to be pounded on anymore. So if you can lead a sport climb or such without the bolts then you have the right to clean it up.It seems to me the ethic in Tuscon is to bolt stuff up so you look like a swell guy when all theses folks can climb the route now. Oh so and so is such a kool guy, he puts up all these routes for us folks to climb. That is so good for your ego's isnt it boys. So common with the older climbers that want to be worshiped by the younger ones, especially the female ones. Lets give all these new climbers a chance. lets spoil them like kids that always get there way. They cry boo hoo i cant climb that Im scared. boo hoo. Oh okay Ill bolt up those cracks for u and also make it so you never have to build any anchors, I would hate for you folks to have to learn how to rock climb. I say leave the rock alone if you cant do it right. let someone else come along and do it with style. We dont need to make this sport accessible for everyone. Stay in the gym if you cant handle it. I have decided to not to climb many routes because of runouts and stuff. Thats the wayn it is. I dont stamp my feet and cry about and get people to make it easier for me. Its time to clean house in Tuscon. Hey lets let the sport stay in the gym, and leave the climbing to the people with integrity and grit.

Thanks for the very useful soapboxing. Do you know the people you are talking down to? Have you ever looked or touched Turbo Trad? Did you just call Tim F. a moron? Thanks for posting.

dale polen wrote:I can not figure climbers out. they are very hypocritical. They say dont do anything unless you get the guy who put it up permission. Well if some moron puts up a climb and bolts gear he or she is already showing bad ethics and style. Then the bolt warriors and sport climbers throw a fit about damaging the rock and ethics. Well the ethics have always been to my knowledge that you dont drill bolts wear gear is available. Simple as that. So I agree with chopping all bolts that are put up unnecessarily. Lets see, when someone pounded pins in a route and then someone comes and frees it, it is no longer an aid climb and is not supposed to be pounded on anymore. So if you can lead a sport climb or such without the bolts then you have the right to clean it up.It seems to me the ethic in Tuscon is to bolt stuff up so you look like a swell guy when all theses folks can climb the route now. Oh so and so is such a kool guy, he puts up all these routes for us folks to climb. That is so good for your ego's isnt it boys. So common with the older climbers that want to be worshiped by the younger ones, especially the female ones. Lets give all these new climbers a chance. lets spoil them like kids that always get there way. They cry boo hoo i cant climb that Im scared. boo hoo. Oh okay Ill bolt up those cracks for u and also make it so you never have to build any anchors, I would hate for you folks to have to learn how to rock climb. I say leave the rock alone if you cant do it right. let someone else come along and do it with style. We dont need to make this sport accessible for everyone. Stay in the gym if you cant handle it. I have decided to not to climb many routes because of runouts and stuff. Thats the wayn it is. I dont stamp my feet and cry about and get people to make it easier for me. Its time to clean house in Tuscon. Hey lets let the sport stay in the gym, and leave the climbing to the people with integrity and grit.

Have you ever plugged cams into limestone? I keep hearing people saying "IT TAKES GEAR"...that may be true that you can plug the gear. The real question here shouldn't be whether you can stick gear in the crack, but rather whether it will hold if you fall on it. Limestone and soft sandstone isn't granite.

This climb does not protect well. I heard that all gear has to be placed below you, because all the placements are also your hand holds. So consequently it is unsafe to climb this on gear. Timmy is a smart and world class climber, he would only bolt a crack if he felt it was unsafe. This line is still unclimbed on gear, and has not been re-bolted yet, I don't think we will be seeing kevin in that neck of the woods anytime soon, he knows the controversy he has caused and rather not show his face. One lesson learned if you can't send it on TR yet than don't chop it, thats all it should boil down to. When someone bolts a crack, who cares, if you think it could be sent on gear it would look a lot more badass if you place gear with the bolts still in. Just my thoughts.

CCC has got a bunch to react to in his rant, some that doesn't bear much discussion, for example when someone bolts a crack, who cares. I've known Timmy for a long time and I don't think safety was his first concern when the route was bolted. The line cried out to be climbed and doing it on gear in the early 90s seemed futuristic (or anachronistic depending on your perspective), so it got bolted. Tweaking people's noses might have just been a bonus.

The quality of Palomas limestone cam placements aside, placing gear after you've passed the placement is standard procedure for many trad climbs. I still regret choosing to place gear and subsequently falling instead of using a section of crack for a handhold and running it out on the crux thin pitch of Cloud Tower, but that is part of the game.

The route can be done safely or mostly safely with gear (just don't fall!), but CCC is right that you should climb the route first with gear before chopping the bolts and even then should think a lot before getting out the chisel and pry bar.

Timmy should go all out and fill in the crack with Sika so no gear could be placed and we can end the controversy ;)

Sorry for the false information, I just heard it was unsafe to climb with gear that's all and that's why I assumed timmy bolted it. I assumed which just made me look like an ass. lol

The same fighting among climbers that has been going on at shelf road for a long time. It's funny to me when so called trad climbers even go to these areas and then complain. It's like jumping overboard in the arctic sea and then complaining about how cold the water is. If you are a real trad climber with the reputation to uphold, I suggest just staying away, or put up your own routes with gear. Just quit your bitching and leave others routes alone.

Jim, +1
As long as the established trad lines don't get retrobolted, trad climbers can have there cake, or they can go find some new tradlines and bake their own cake.

Dale,
I'm still waiting for you to post up your cool new all trad area, to show us what new routes are supposed to look like. Except you're too busy bitching about all the new sport routes(most of which you can't climb) that have gone up on the Lemmon.
How about we go out and you can try to lead one of the few sport routes that have gone on gear. You will of course have to do them ground up, no TR rehersal, because that's the only way to climb with integrity. As soon as you can lead them, old school tough guy, I'll chop them.

Notice how he has been a member for only one day and his name is kevin jaramilio but he capitalized the i to make it look like an l? That is probably because the username kevin jaramillo was already taken by the real kevin.

Troll on fake kevin. You were a little too over the top delusional to be believable.

David Appelhans wrote:Notice how he has been a member for only one day and his name is kevin jaramilio but he capitalized the i to make it look like an l? That is probably because the username kevin jaramillo was already taken by the real kevin. Troll on fake kevin. You were a little too over the top delusional to be believable.

The fake account should be removed, there should be 0 tolerance for impersonating another member

David Appelhans wrote:Notice how he has been a member for only one day and his name is kevin jaramilio but he capitalized the i to make it look like an l? That is probably because the username kevin jaramillo was already taken by the real kevin. Troll on fake kevin. You were a little too over the top delusional to be believable.

Nice catch David. I have flagged the fake "Kevin's" post to the admins. That said, I do think it is strange that the real Kevin removed his posts from this thread recently. It is unfortunate that he was willing to remove the bolts but won't let his words and justifications for doing so be known to all.

I read "Kevin Jaramilio's" letter yesterday and thought it was absolutely hysterical and Ironic to the core!! Bravo whoever you are, damn, I will buy you a beer and your favorite shot. Classic!
And yes, Augie hit it on the nail. It disgusts me that Kevin said he would rebolt the route, and then turn around and say he doesnt have the money for the hardware. But apparently he has the money to take a climbing "holiday" in the Dolomites right after this whole debacle. Class act I tell you......It seems as if "Kevin Jaramilio" takes after his twin Kevin Jaramillo; post,delete, and get the hell out. The irony is amazing. And the really funny thing is that Kevin was probably actually planning to submit his video he made to one of those climbing film tours. And whats up with chopping all the bolts and leavin the anchors at the top? Uh..can someone explain to me this new "Super Duper Trad Ethic" that is sweepin the nation by storm? Well Kevin, you sure got your notoriety and fame out of this. Unfortunately you went about this in a selfish and boneheaded way. Just think about it.....if you could have notified the community before you chopped the route and done it in a respectful/clean style none of us would be ripping you to shreds right now. Instead, we would be giving you props and talkin about how much of a bad ass you are. But I guess your ego is too big for your climbing helmet!

I went to delete the post but it was already gone. My guess is when Andy deleted the fake account, the post was automatically deleted as well.

So if somebody solos a route does ALL fixed gear (bolts, pins, webbing etc...) have to be removed since it has been proven that all the stuff is not necessary?
I dunno but it seems like removing established bolts (from the FA or community agreed upon added ones) is like trying to tell everyone else that unless they are as "badass" as you they are not allowed to enjoy the line.
Ok aid climbers! Everyone off the Nose! It has been freed and you are no longer worthy of it. Oh and since some elite free climbers use extra long (specially manufactured) ropes to skip non ledge belays (so as to keep the route as naturally free as possible) all hanging belays on these routes MUST be eliminated as they are also unnecessary.
I also wonder how many of these "badasses" worked the route first using the bolts working out all the placements and moves. Onsite trad ascents of such challenging lines are rare generally speaking (meaning of established difficult sport lines).
Adding or subtracting bolts/fixed gear should be a community input effort.
Just because you do a line in a different (notice I did not say "better") style than others doesn't mean you get authority over the ethics of the line.

Monomaniac wrote:I went to delete the post but it was already gone. My guess is when Andy deleted the fake account, the post was automatically deleted as well.

Mono and George,
I was in contact with Andy L. and he deleted the offending post.

If a post or user account is deleted, it is not because the administrators are trying to "editorialize this site." We have never done that and never will. If something gets deleted, it is because:

a. someone posted something offensive.
b. someone's user name was offensive (like "mtnproj isgay" or similar).
c. someone impersonated another member.
d. someone was banned for one of the above, and returned to the site under another identity.
e. someone ignored guideline #1: don't be a jerk

Those are the most common reasons.

We do not delete things simply because we disagree.

Since this has turned into a "Bolting" thread I would like to post a set of rules for all climbers to follow in the future.

1. Bolts should only be placed where other protection is not available.

2. Once a climb has been established it should be left in its original state unless the 1st ascentionist has been notified, or there is a general agreement in the community.

3. Bolting (near cracks) should not be done just because it would make things more convenient for people to not have to carry gear up to a route. What are we Europeons?

4. There is an exception to every rule.

I'm coming from a background of having to hand drill on lead. Which is such a pain in the ass that you only drill if you have to. But once a bolt is placed I don't see the point in chopping it.

Just one persons opinions. Of course they're the right ones. :)

Jason J Patton wrote:No one even got out guns? Come on pussies, this is a turf war. I've been a little preoccupied lately or else I would be blastin bitches for sure. You gonna let em punk you like that Kevin? Shiat, I thought you were my N....What did I lone you my gat for?

James DeRoussel, You are as much of a hypocrite (in my opinion) as Kevin Jaramillo! You two obviously run the same circle.... The only reason this guys post did not get removed off this forum is because he is friends with one of the admins and a fellow trad daddy. As well, his comment didn't conflict with your ideals about climbing (or it would have been removed long ago), but most importantly it didn't offend your personal hero and idol, Kevin Jaramillo. So is that how it works James? If I know the Admins and I don't agree with what someone says I just send you guys an email, and "vous voila" the offending post is gone.
Ok everyone, this how it played out and why Kevin's letter, Franz's post, etc... got removed: Kevin felt the heat, and through a conduit he convinced the admins to remove all offending posts (offending to his ego that is). Come on James, you don't play us all for fools do you? We know who the Admins are and their climbing circles.
So what happens now, you don't like my post so are you going to remove it? Go ahead, remove this if you don't agree with it. I think its absolutely hilarious that some of you take this site sooo serious!! Its like your Holy Bible, and nothing else in the world matters. I have more respect for teeny boppers on TMZ and OMG blogs then I ever will for all the uber serious tradsters that frequent this site, at least they dont take themselves so serious and get offended when someone else says something bad about Miley Cyrus (like they didnt like her dress).
James,Lee, EgoManiac.....etc, the only place on this planet you guys have power and control on people is this website. Outside of this electronic domain you (along with the rest of us) are all just "pebbles in the pond" and nobody cares....What makes you and Kevin Jaramillo So special??
So Go ahead James......delete away, or should I say CENSOR away!!

Ah yes, the MP inverse page rule is starting to kick in....
The more pages in a thread, the more juvenile, petty and personal the responses become and the more brand new ids w/ single postings start to show up.

I say vote with your mouse and let the thre.... click