Docking? With adjustable daisy?

I am a relative newbie at big walls, having only done Moonlight a couple of years ago. When we did that, we used a tether with a munter/mule for docking.

Being a little rusty, I've been re-visiting how to dock the pig. Seems some are using an adjustable daisy. Anyone have an opinion on this? It seems easier and less clustered.

I assume haul the bag up with the daisy clipped to a locker on the bags short handle (with another locker on the long strap clipped to locker on the short strap).

Clip the adjustable daisy in to the anchor, tighten it up to desired height, then pull the bag up enough more to release the wall hauler and lower down on to the daisy?

When ready to go, just wait until the bag is hauled up and off the daisy, then un-clip the daisy from the anchor?

I have the feeling I'm missing something?

Thanks!

I use a fifi girth hitched to the main hauling locker and just hook it to a sling thats attached to the anchor. I then back it up with a daisy just in case.

An adjustable daisy might be a good idea though. The fifi is just easy to hook and unhook and when you have to lower a bag out theres no chance of it hanging off the side of the pig and getting torn up.

I use an adjustable for the pigs works great, can move them around (height) easily and easy to let them go. Just make sure you back them up at the belay with the haul line while out on lead...

One feature of the munter-mule is that it is releasable under load. This comes in handy when you are lowering out the bag on a traverse.

I've only ever used the metolius adjustable daisy, which is not really releasable under load. I've heard that the yates adj daisys are, so maybe that would be a good choice.

But really, a short piece of cord tied with a munter-mule knot works well, so that's what I'll continue using. You can use the rope, or any old daisy, as a backup.

-Scott

Yeah the Yates or Fish Adj are releasable under a load. The metolius are not a good design at all. Kinda funny cause they make really good stuff. The munter mule is a great knot, just too lazy to tie it at every belay easier to clip in the daisy.

Kurt "Burt" Arend

Scott correctly identifies the problem with this method of docking the pig - what happens if your next pitch is either diagonalling or traversing? You are left with the same problem - how do you unclip the carabiner holding the weight of the pig if your partner is pulling it sideways or diagonally, rather than straight up?

And of course the same problem exists when soloing.

I don't see any benefit in putting an adjustable daisy on top of your pig, although in theory it sounds like it might be a good idea. I just like a dedicated docking tether, which I back up with a sling. It's important to make sure you release the sling first if you're soloing or about to haul a traversing or diagonally pitch, so the pig doesn't end up stuck on the sling. Accordingly, when you finish with your docking tether knot, wrap a tail through the sling, which will remind you to first disconnect the sling backup before untying the load release knot in your docking tether.

Where an adjustable daisy comes in extremely handy when big wall camping is on top of your portaledge! Kate came up with this idea, and it is nothing short of brilliant. If you flag your ledge, extend the adjustable daisy to full length, and clip it in above the top corner. When you arrive at your campsite, clip the adjustable daisy into the farthest anchor to one side as you can. And then presto - you can instantly and easily arrange the exact height you want your ledge to sit in order to give you easy access into your pig.

If I may join in the conversation with such illustrious spraylords I have a theory about the doubled docking cord.

You can use the knot Mark describes or you can use a munter-mule. Yes, it takes about two seconds more to tie and dress but really if your serious about climbing walls or climbing in general you should probably have the munter-mule wired.

So you can tie the munter-mule on the doubled cord or you could tie it on a single strand. So you could just have a single docking cord. So why the extra clusterf#%k of the double? For bailing off scary walls with big scary loads of gear, that’s why. At some point you're going to have to do it.

So at home rig your load with a double docking cord but at the anchor hang it off a munter-mule tied on a single strand (call this knot A). Now when the snail-eye hits using the loose strand tie a second munter-mule onto a separate biner but don't clip it too the anchor (call this knot B). Attach your rappel device to your bags (and yourself to your bags) then undo knot A and lower your bags onto the ropes.

Start rappelling when you reach that next anchor you'll have munter-mule knot B all ready to clip the bag s in with. Once you're situated at the anchor retie munter-mule knot A and repeat the process.

That’s not theory, that’s actual practice. The theory is that this was the original intent of whomever came up with a double docking cord. Eventually some fool copied the setup but got up on a wall and couldn't remember or didn't know how to tie a munter-mule so they dicked around and came up with the wrapped-around stopper knot. Fool A was copied by fool B who then wrote it up as a tech tip in Climbing to get $25 (remember that?) and the rest is history.

For those interested in still using an adjustable daisy don't. As pointed out on traversing pitches the advantage of a docking cord is you can lower the bags off the anchor and just let the cord slip off the end of the biner (resulting in bags swinging across wall). With an adjustable daisy you're screwed.

Darin Berdinka wrote: For those interested in still using an adjustable daisy don't. As pointed out on traversing pitches the advantage of a docking cord is you can lower the bags off the anchor and just let the cord slip off the end of the biner (resulting in bags swinging across wall). With an adjustable daisy you're screwed.

With an Adjustable daisy you are not screwed.

When you need to lower the bag out, just tie a munter ,on the haul line tail or a lower out line, onto a biner on the anchor.....press the magic ADJ daisy button.... let the weight of the bag come onto the muner and lower away!

It's not rocket science. When you need to lower out the bag, just do it. Think outside your personal box.

The Adjustable daisy works very fast and easy. Use it exactly as the original poster described.

cheers,

josh

The adjustable provides more pros than cons...

The docking cord isn't a lower out line. Use the haul line for that.

Start using an adjustable and you won't go back to a docking cord.

BAHAHAHAHAHAH.....I feel dirty now.

For me the primary advantage of a docking tether is to eliminate the backup with the haul line (or sling) It only takes one heated exchange where your partner forgets to untie the backup and you cannot hear them yelling to release the bags for this to be significant. I used to use a 20' 6mm cord tied with a long and short leg for this but now prefer a single 15' of 9mm cord(old ropes work great). It can act as a lower out, and you can use the end to back up your munter-mule if you feel the need. It also is useful for micro hauls at the end of the day when you need to get your bags out of the way or onto a ledge. After a few dozen times the munter-mule is almost automatic and can be placed anywhere needed on the cord (1-15 feet from the anchor)

The problem I see with using an adjustable daisy is that releasing them under load causes the nylon to fray slightly. Done enough times and the daisy will have a soft spot where it will tend to slip. Also I would not feel comfortable using it as the only attachment for the bags, and now we are back to using a backup.

To each his own...there are lot's of ways to do most things and it is up to the individual to find the way that works best for them.

"Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok wrote:An adjustable daisy comes in extremely handy when big wall camping is on top of your portaledge! Kate came up with this idea, and it is nothing short of brilliant. If you flag your ledge, extend the adjustable daisy to full length, and clip it in above the top corner. When you arrive at your campsite, clip the adjustable daisy into the farthest anchor to one side as you can. And then presto - you can instantly and easily arrange the exact height you want your ledge to sit in order to give you easy access into your pig.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not picturing it and it sounds very interesting. I'm a big fan of flagging the ledge whenever possible. No time to setup at hanging belays and it makes the belays fantastic.

I still wouldn't dock my pig on an adjustable daisy. There are plenty of times when you are hauling a diagonalling pitch, where it would be impossible for your partner to lift your pig enough to unclip the daisy. Therefore you would have to rig the haul line as a lower-out line. What a pain in the ass. Lots of times on these diagonalling pitches, there is nothing for the pig to impact and you can just let it fly without rigging a lower-out. In situations like this you just untie the docking tether and let 'er fly. Only takes a moment. Much much quicker and easier than rigging any kind of lower out.

I find a double docking tether easier to tie and untie than a single strand munter mule. I use about a 12-foot hunk of 7mm cord for my docking tether, usually an old cordalette, which after the knot leaves a couple tails about five feet long. This gives you some flexibility in how high you dock your pig, and if docked short, gives you a quick and easy 5-foot length of lower-out line that doesn't need to be rigged. Aid climbs are by their nature overhanging, and many times even on diagonalling pitches you can just let your pig fly.

Caveat: I have gotten into the habit of backing up my docking tether with a separate sling. After I do this, I take a tail of the docking tether and tie it around the sling. This way, when I go to untie the docking tether, I can't accidentally forget to remove the backup sling first. [at least this is the case in theory]

Not sure what you don't get about the adjustable daisy above the ledge? Just put the daisy on the main suspension point of the ledge, and use it to quickly and easily adjust the height of the ledge when you camp.

When you flag a ledge in the traditional sense, you will have a dedicated non-locking crab on each corner of the ledge that faces the wall, which you clip to the weighted haul line above the pig. So the ledge sits like a flag on the haul line connected at the corners. Then you would take the main suspension point locker on the ledge, where the six straps come together, and attach that to the haul line between the two corners. This is difficult to do sometimes, and even harder to get off. Another problem is that if you don't shorten the portaledge straps on the bottom side, they can tangle in a twirling pig creating the dreaded charlie foxtrot.

What makes the adjustable daisy on top so bitchin', besides the ease of height adjustment at your campsite, is that you need not attach the main suspenion point to the weighted haul line, and instead attach only the end of the adjustable daisy. Attach this ABOVE the uppermost corner connection crab on the ledge.

What this means is that your ledge approaches the upper hauling station, the first thing that comes to your reach is the crab on the top of the adjustable daisy. Easily pluck it off the line, and clip it in safely wherever. After this, you can easily and safely remove the other two corner crabs from the weighted haul line.

Contrast this with the traditional method of removing a flagged ledge from a weighted haul line, where you would have to attach a separate double-length sling to an anchor. The adjustable daisy on top eliminates this step and saves tons of time.

Thanks Pete, that makes total sense. I think I'll give that a whirl next month. I didn't understand where the adjustable daisy was getting clipped while the ledge was flown, but clipping it as the top piece on the hauline makes sense now.

Cheers.

Ha.

After just having come down off the wall, and having launched more than a few diagonal hauls, I can tell you *unequivocally* that docking your pig with an adjustable daisy is the dumbest-ass idea ever.

Use a docking tether. It unties at any angle. Adjustable daisies don't.

At one point, I was fighting a damn adjustable daisy on a diagonal liftoff, and I was actually thinking about this post, and how I was going to RANT as soon as I got down.

So there.

[/rant]

Ha.

After just having come down off the wall, and having launched more than a few diagonal hauls, I can tell you *unequivocally* that docking your pig with an adjustable daisy is the dumbest-ass idea ever.

Use a docking tether. It unties at any angle. Adjustable daisies don't.

At one point, I was fighting a damn adjustable daisy on a diagonal liftoff, and I was actually thinking about this post, and how I was going to RANT as soon as I got down.

So there.

[/rant]

Yes Pete you are right... when you have 15,000 lbs of shit (you will have to do the conversion to kilos you freakin Canadian) a side ways pitch can be a problem. For most non "vertical campers" that climb walls in a normal style with moderated to heavy bags (still using one haul no 2:1) an adjustable works just fine. Yes certain pitches are the exception, but for most pitches this is the fastest, cleanest, and easiest system to use in my opinion. Used it for years, and hasn't screwed me yet. Most cases even if a little swing is going to happen, I just have the leader lift the bags, I grab the bags, give a bump to get the biner off from the adjustable to the bag and they are gone. Just my way of doing it, has always worked. Soloing I do the same thing unless the bags are just super heavy or funky, then I use the ole chongo load release knot trick.

Kurt "Burt" Arend