Personal Preference

xkcd.com/386/
(nobody is really wrong here)

"If you just clip the master point, unless you are belaying a good distance below it, I wouldn't think that would really change the fall factor. I would think the only thing it would do is change the direction of force on the belayer (and theoretically put more force on the anchor depending on the belay stance)."

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"Here are my solutions, hear me out! 1. Place a seperate piece right above the anchor and clip the rope through that. 2. Make your anchor with one additional piece of pro than you deem necessary and clip that making sure if it fails, the anchor is not extended. 3. If you're very confident you wont fall, lead on and get a piece soon either running the rope through the masterpoint or straight off your harness(the belayer should know what to expect as far as the direction of belay goes if the leader falls)"

Here is another thought, if your worried about jumping into a crux off the belay, set your belay lower on the previous pitch, so when you hit the crux on the next pitch, you will have more gear under you when you tackle the crux, or combine the two pitches. The problem is that each climb is different, so there is no hard and fast rule to always follow. I hear what your saying about compromising your anchor by falling onto a piece of it, but that is why multiple pieces are set for a downward pull when the anchor is constructed and they are equalized and extension limited. I do think that if the crux is off the belay you should try to place gear often up to and through the crux. But I would be more worried about my belayer dropping me in a factor 2 fall than anchor failure because I clipped the high piece of my anchor.

Many pitches begin and end on ledges, and the climbing around the belay is often easier than the rest of the route. The old school practice of climbing up to a roof and doing a short pitch to surmount it (e.g. the roof routes in Eldo, or Howling at the Wind in Lumpy) is becoming less common as climber fitness improves. As such, the situation this thread is concerned with is becoming more arcane.

It has often been my opinion that the rc.com crowd spends too much time and emotional energy obsessing over these very specialized situations, while neglecting discussion of what commonly kills climbers (rock fall, bad belaying, and "exceeding abilities"). MP.com has always been a quieter site and perhaps no one really wants a "nice debate" on a topic that has been fought out many times before.

It's a little overbuilt, but this anchor shows pretty well what i would consider the ideal way to run the rope for the leader. In this case, I used the top shelf instead of the master point for a little extra room between myself and the anchor. I've got a draw on the high piece acting as his first piece clipped. This adds rope to the system in case my leader falls before getting a piece in. If that piece were to blow, the rest of the anchor is sound and he would not fall directly on me.

I see a number of potential problems with the leader falling directly on the belayer - first and foremost, you're going want to pull your brake hand down to arrest the fall. When the leader is below you and your device is pointing down... this will allow the rope to feed. Second of all, the belayer may get ripped from his stance and loose control or get injured. Using the masterpoint means you can anticipate the direction of pull and the worst that happens is you get pulled into the master point.

If there were no bomber piece to use as the high piece without compromising the anchor, use just the master point.

If your placements aren't solid to begin with, your anchor is already compromised.

In my reply above I gave several option because the best answer is:

IT DEPENDS.

But, clipping the master point does not reduce fall factor as much as clipping the highest piece.

Ex. If the belayer is hanging 1 foot below the master and the leader clips the master and falls 4 feet above the master you get a fall factor of 1.6 (8 feet of free fall onto 5 feet of rope) quite severe.

On the other hand, if the belayer is hanging 1 foot below the master and the leader clips the high piece which is 2 feet above the master and the leader falls in the same place 4 feet above the master you get a fall factor of .8, a significant difference. And with no additional gear needed. Of course the highest piece must be bomber. (Reread Mark Nelson's comment)

Perhaps the best scenario is to have a bomber piece separate and above the anchor so that a leader fall will not go onto the anchor at all. But, this is not always an option.

Mark Nelson wrote:If your placements aren't solid to begin with, your anchor is already compromised.

True, but sometimes you are faced with less than ideal conditions. Say for discussion that in my anchor above that the #1 is suspect because the block it's in looks detached (but feels solid enough), and the 3 tricams are a bit flaring and in less than ideal rock. As a whole, the anchor's still solid, it distributes the load well and has alot of redundancy, it's even in two separate features. If that had been the case though, I would just have the master point clipped and kept the integrity of the anchor as a whole intact.

Crossing- That fall factor calculator gives a >1 fall factor when you're 5 feet above your last piece with 60meters of rope out! Something's not right there...

Everyone else, I believe everyone agrees that it's good to clip a higher piece to avoid a factor 2 fall on the belay at all costs. I have to respectfully disagree about clipping the masterpoint if it's at about the same level as the belay though. It's just the way I like to belay. I'm always aware of the direction change and the force that will be put on me if there was to be a fall.

Mark- I completely understand it all comes down to your placements. But you're not always guaranteed your perfect placements will hold, which causes theoretical concern to me. It doesn't bother me when I'm actually climbing. I have yet to encounter a crux right off the belay except on the first pitch, yes it was scary, but at least I didn't have to worry about a factor 2!

I guess I have to start BASE free-soloing so I can stop thinking about these things...

Brian Adzima wrote:Many pitches begin and end on ledges, and the climbing around the belay is often easier than the rest of the route. The old school practice of climbing up to a roof and doing a short pitch to surmount it (e.g. the roof routes in Eldo, or Howling at the Wind in Lumpy) is becoming less common as climber fitness improves. As such, the situation this thread is concerned with is becoming more arcane. It has often been my opinion that the rc.com crowd spends too much time and emotional energy obsessing over these very specialized situations, while neglecting discussion of what commonly kills climbers (rock fall, bad belaying, and "exceeding abilities"). MP.com has always been a quieter site and perhaps no one really wants a "nice debate" on a topic that has been fought out many times before.

+1

JJ Brunner wrote:Crossing- That fall factor calculator gives a >1 fall factor when you're 5 feet above your last piece with 60meters of rope out! Something's not right there...

I yeah, that thing sucks

Statistic BLAH... Fall Factor BLAH.... Master point, key piece BLAH... Study BLAH.... Clip this, that, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. Super technical and interesting post.... ??

If you climb Trad, know how to build a S.E.RE.N.E ( Solid Redundant Equalized No Extension)anchor. One you would put your, and your partners, LIFE on. Leader clips it or doesnt, with intent to get a piece in ASAP, and just climb. Smart, solid and safe. No PHD analyzation needed...

I, as many of you, have been climbing trad a LONG time. Good skills, solid anchors and safe practices, have me standing here today. No analytical, statistical, multi page internet debate/thought process needed. Keep it simple people.

Dam the internet and free time!! Climb on- Climb safe!

Brian Adzima wrote: It has often been my opinion that the rc.com crowd spends too much time and emotional energy obsessing over these very specialized situations, while neglecting discussion of what commonly kills climbers (rock fall, bad belaying, and "exceeding abilities").

Certainly one of the best points to be made; we obsess over minutia in something that really isn't that much of a concern as to what should be more of a concern in climbing accidents.

Maybe it's more about not fully appreciating the lives in risk of a given situation.

Mark Nelson wrote: Certainly one of the best points to be made; we obsess over minutia in something that really isn't that much of a concern as to what should be more of a concern in climbing accidents. Maybe it's more about not fully appreciating the lives in risk of a given situation.

Agreed. I don't think with anywhere near the detail with my anchors I'm questioning here when I'm actually climbing. Although when I'm stuck inside on a rainy day like today...you really can't think that much about how to avoid rockfall but you can think about improving your technical systems!

JJ Brunner wrote:Everyone else, I believe everyone agrees that it's good to clip a higher piece to avoid a factor 2 fall on the belay at all costs. I have to respectfully disagree about clipping the masterpoint if it's at about the same level as the belay though. It's just the way I like to belay. I'm always aware of the direction change and the force that will be put on me if there was to be a fall.

I'm still just trying to figure out why it's preferrable to catch a potential FF2 fall off your harness instead of your anchor. Seems to me you'd likely drop your partner from rope burn or brake hand direction of fall changes as others have said. As one admittedly new trad leader to another, I have to say that your logic utterly escapes me. It's one thing to have a differing opinion - potahto/potawto - when there's no significant difference in outcomes... ie. there's nothing at stake. But your choice seems to be lacking in any substantial rationale, and, even worse, could potentially get someone killed.

That said, I'm still a newb and defer to the experienced tradsters that have weighed in here.

Ayescotty9 wrote: I'm still just trying to figure out why it's preferrable to catch a potential FF2 fall off your harness instead of your anchor. Seems to me you'd likely drop your partner from rope burn or brake hand direction of fall changes as others have said. As one admittedly new trad leader to another, I have to say that your logic utterly escapes me. It's one thing to have a differing opinion - potahto/potawto - when there's no significant difference in outcomes... ie. there's nothing at stake. But your choice seems to be lacking in any substantial rationale, and, even worse, could potentially get someone killed. That said, I'm still a newb and defer to the experienced tradsters that have weighed in here.

My thoughts are that you should never fall on your belay anchor. If there's even a questionable chance the leader will fall before the first placement, you clip a piece above your belay anchor before the lead starts or throw an additional piece into the anchor and clip that piece.

That aside, if the leader's not clipped through a piece and I'm belaying straight off my harness, I make sure there's no slack in my personal tether so I don't get yanked if there is a fall. The only difference to me is the change in direction of the belay and I prepare myself for that. 80% of the time I belay the second straight from my harness, but a FF2 would be the same but with a little bit greater force :)....My reasoning is that however much of the fall I could hold with my body would be taken of the belay anchor.

I wouldn't do this if I wasn't certain I could hold a fall. But frankly, if my partner and I put ourselves in a situation where we'd fall on the belay anchor, there would already be a problem or problems of much greater concern than running the rope through the master point or not.

JJ Brunner wrote: My thoughts are that you should never fall on your belay anchor. If there's even a questionable chance the leader will fall before the first placement, you clip a piece above your belay anchor before the lead starts or throw an additional piece into the anchor and clip that piece. That aside, if the leader's not clipped through a piece and I'm belaying straight off my harness, I make sure there's no slack in my personal tether so I don't get yanked if there is a fall. The only difference to me is the change in direction of the belay and I prepare myself for that. 80% of the time I belay the second straight from my harness, but a FF2 would be the same but with a little bit greater force :)....My reasoning is that however much of the fall I could hold with my body would be taken of the belay anchor. I wouldn't do this if I wasn't certain I could hold a fall. But frankly, if my partner and I put ourselves in a situation where we'd fall on the belay anchor, there would already be a problem or problems of much greater concern than running the rope through the master point or not.

Stop using a static tether. Rope -> clove hitch -> master point. Infinitely adjustable, no need for redundancy, fast, and shock absorbing in case you do something stupid.

There's no need for a tether. There is nothing faster or safer than the above system. And for the record, no one here is against innovation or trying new things. The issue is that all the practices you espouse were tested (and discarded) before you or I were even born. Stop looking for a problem where there isn't one. You'll live longer.

I'm still not sure if this is a giant epic trolling attempt. Roughly 250+ years of combined climbing experience are all telling you that there are faster, safer ways, and yet you persist...

I'm done.

Wen starting on the second pitch I usually clip into the anchor until I have a piece or two above the anchor than then I unclip it to reduce drag on the rope.

JJ Brunner wrote: My thoughts are that you should never fall on your belay anchor. If there's even a questionable chance the leader will fall before the first placement, you clip a piece above your belay anchor before the lead starts or throw an additional piece into the anchor and clip that piece.

For one, and I'm sure someone has raised this point already, is that you don't even need to face a FF2 if you can extend yourself down below the master point using a clove with the rope into a strong piece(s) of the anchor and belay from there.

In a situation where the leader is leading out of the belay through crux moves it's also likely that they won't have an opportunity immediately above the anchor to place pro and clip. Instead, just extend yourself below the master point to belay and the leader clips the master point as their first piece.

Jon- I want to stop. I really do. But I can't help myself responding to this post.

I don't get the "there's no need for a tether statement"

And I'm always attached to the master point with the climbing rope to avoid a completely static system.

Slowtrad- I 100% trust my anchor, but nobody wants to fall straight onto their last line of safety when 500 feet up the rock. I don't understand everybody bringing up rope burns from belaying straight off the harness. A FF2 is a FF2(the only scenario I'd belay straight off my harness is if the only alternative is risk a FF2 onto the anchor) either way with the only changes being the direction and maybe a little reduction in force if it's redirected through the masterpoint and from the belayer getting pulled. But if you can get pulled real high, then the concern for taking a FF2 onto the masterpoint is probably not there anyway. And yes, it's on my waist but like I stated before, I'm going to be taught with my masterpoint attachment and in line with the fall forces so I don't get yanked if the leader falls.

I'll tell you right now, I feel my money is much better spent on gas for climbing than on a class. My anchors are safe, not any less bomber than anybody else's anchors here. People keep insisting I don't trust my anchor when I have continuosly repeated myself that I do.

Owen- You can unclip your first clip after you've placed one or two other pieces? How close are your pieces?! JK. I'm just disagreeing with the majority here on clipping your anchor if it could take a FF2.

I'm getting a lot of your WRONG and going to DIE sort of things but I'm not going to die. I don't think anybody's used "wrong" yet but that's what I'm feeling.

I'm going to have to set up a FF2 onto my harness to prove I can do it! I'm not saying it will be easy to catch, just that it will equally suck to catching a FF2 redirected through the anchor.

Kachoong- Good point, but the only time I'd bother with that is when I'd have to belay right below the crux. But Crossing brought up a better solution earlier which is to fix your pitches so you don't end up with the anchor right below the crux. That way, you don't have to fall on your belay anchor at all...hopefully...

JJ Brunner wrote: I'm going to have to set up a FF2 onto my harness to prove I can do it! I'm not saying it will be easy to catch, just that it will equally suck to catching a FF2 redirected through the anchor.

YEAH!!! DO IT! And take video. What size weight you gonna drop?

I'm thinking I'll start with my little brother, and after that one (whether I catch it or not) I'll throw a couple ex girlfriends on there at the same time to give me a less chance of catching them.