Does water in a crack effect a cam's holding power

So I was climbing in Yosemite yesterday, 2/3 up Bishop's Terrace when clouds rolled in and started to pour rain. The rock became wet quickly and I got to wondering, "Is a cam placed in a wet crack as effective as a cam placed in a dry crack?" Luckily, I didn't have to find out first hand. Anybody know?

Jake Sahl wrote:So I was climbing in Yosemite yesterday, 2/3 up Bishop's Terrace when clouds rolled in and started to pour rain. The rock became wet quickly and I got to wondering, "Is a cam placed in a wet crack as effective as a cam placed in a dry crack?" Luckily, I didn't have to find out first hand. Anybody know?

yes.

No, water does not effect a cam's holding power. If this were the case, climbers would have to carry spray bottles to wet down cracks before placing cams, especially in dry areas.

You're thinking of friction and translation of downward pull to outward expansion.

If anything, I would think water would decrease the placement's efficacy. What a strange question...

stranger answer.... but yes, water does decrease a cam's holding power as it generally reduces the friction between the lobes and the surface of the crack. water in a sandstone crack is even worse, as it it decreases the strength of the sandstone.

yak wrote:No, water does not effect a cam's holding power. If this were the case, climbers would have to carry spray bottles to wet down cracks before placing cams, especially in dry areas. You're thinking of friction and translation of downward pull to outward expansion. If anything, I would think water would decrease the placement's efficacy. What a strange question...

Why would climbers carry spray bottles if it decreases the efficacy, no one said it made the placement better.

Water in a crack would have to have a negative impact on gear placements. Instead of aluminum on rock (in a dry scenario) you now have aluminum on a thin film of water on rock. Just like climbing shoes on wet rock has less friction, but obviously 2 different materials

Shouldn't you be asking if water in the crack would affect the cam's holding power. Because it would be the effect of water that would affect the cam.

Jake Sahl wrote:So I was climbing in Yosemite yesterday, 2/3 up Bishop's Terrace when clouds rolled in and started to pour rain. The rock became wet quickly and I got to wondering, "Is a cam placed in a wet crack as effective as a cam placed in a dry crack?" Luckily, I didn't have to find out first hand. Anybody know?

Yes, water will decrease the holding power of a cam. Cams rely on friction to keep them in place, water decreases the friction and therefor decreases the holding power. As was mentioned earlier, this is even worse when climbing sandstone becasue water weakens the sandstone as well.

For those randomly seeking life and death advice on the internet, please take note that we have received two completely contradictory answers delivered with equal authority and confidence.

Mike Anderson wrote:For those randomly seeking life and death advice on the internet, please take note that we have received two completely contradictory answers delivered with equal authority and confidence.

The only contradictory answer was that given by yak which I have quoted below. By reading his statement, even a second grader would be able to tell that he has absolutly no clue what he is talking about and doesn't even understand the OP's question, so really there is only one coherent answer given in this thread.

Quote by yak: "No, water does not effect a cam's holding power. If this were the case, climbers would have to carry spray bottles to wet down cracks before placing cams, especially in dry areas.

You're thinking of friction and translation of downward pull to outward expansion.

If anything, I would think water would decrease the placement's efficacy. What a strange question..."

Agreed, cams rely on friction with the rock, and anything that affects or reduces that friction is going to reduce the effectiveness of the cam placement.

Perhaps Yak is making a joke of the misuse of the word 'effect', when the poster meant to say 'affect'?

kennoyce wrote: The only contradictory answer was that given by yak which I have quoted below. By reading his statement, even a second grader would be able to tell that he has absolutly no clue what he is talking about and doesn't even understand the OP's question, so really there is only one coherent answer given in this thread.

Yak was sarcastically pointing out the grammatical error in the thread title.

kennoyce wrote: The only contradictory answer was that given by yak which I have quoted below. By reading his statement, even a second grader would be able to tell that he has absolutly no clue what he is talking about and doesn't even understand the OP's question, so really there is only one coherent answer given in this thread.

Well, I'm no second grader, so I could be way off base here, but I just re-read my answer and stand by every word of it.

How do you think cams work?

love xkcd!

I would think that dry rock is better. Just place a good stopper and be done with it.

yak wrote:No, water does not effect a cam's holding power. If this were the case, climbers would have to carry spray bottles to wet down cracks before placing cams, especially in dry areas. You're thinking of friction and translation of downward pull to outward expansion. If anything, I would think water would decrease the placement's efficacy. What a strange question...

Is this sarcastic? I honestly can't tell

and to think that all along i've carried around this spray bottle to lube up tick marked holds in over-used bouldering areas.. boy was i wrong. well, better late than never i guess, thanks for the solid advice, yak. :)

yak wrote: Well, I'm no second grader, so I could be way off base here, but I just re-read my answer and stand by every word of it. How do you think cams work?

As a mechanical engineer who has designed, built, and tested cams (not professionally, but as a hobby), I certainly do know how cams work. In your reply you stated, "No, water does not effect a cam's holding power." Now I'm assuming that you meant to say water does not affect a cam's holding power. If this is the case than you would be wrong due to the fact that cams rely on friction for holding power and water would lower the friction between the cam and the rock (generally speaking of course).

wow? an ME in the house? I guess engineers are still notoriously bad at grammar/spelling.

You all realize there are two definitions to effect:

1)something that is produced by an agency or cause; result; consequence: Exposure to the sun had the effect of toughening his skin.

2)power to produce results; efficacy; force; validity; influence:
His protest had no effect.

tricams in wet ... only way to fly

kennoyce wrote: Now I'm assuming that you meant to say water does not affect a cam's holding power.

Ah, see, I was assuming that the OP knew all the definitions of 'effect.'