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Southern Arizona Climbing Etiquette---Part I, September 2010

Original Post
Scott M. McNamara · · Presidio San Augustine Del… · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 55
SOUTHERN ARIZONA CLIMBING ETIQUETTE—PART I

THE EXPERIMENT
About once a month I intend to post a topic for discussion. Let’s see if anybody is interested. If you have one you want discussed---e-mail me.

GOAL
My goal is to see if we can reach some consensus about climbing etiquette in Southern Arizona and thereby head off future problems.

METHOD
I intend to state a topic, present my thoughts and hope for your input.

SEPTEMBER 2010---TOPIC: ADDING FIXED ANCHORS TO ESTABLISHED CLIMBS

It is ever OK to add fixed anchors to an established route without permission?

DEFINITION
Fixed anchors = bolts, pins or anything left behind other than by the first ascentionist.

MY VIEW
It is never OK to add fixed anchors to an established route without permission and sometimes it is wrong even with permission.

REASON FOR PRINCIPLE
I think the reason for this principle is respect for the first ascentionist (and respect for yourself). Yes, I know nobody owns the rock, but if we cannot agree on some minimal guidelines then we become subject to the “Tragedy of the Commons.” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trage…

CAVEAT
As soon as I began to think about this principle, I found exceptions:

1. Rescues. Presumably, the bolts should be chopped thereafter.

2. Top anchors and anchors on multi-pitch routes. Back in the day if you could walk off, then you did. A decade or more later, chains appeared on the top a lot of the popular routes on Lemmon. Similarly, multi-pitch routes which had gear belays that became bolted belays. Something was lost and something was gained. I can think of several multi-pitch routes with gear belays that bolted belays would significantly diminish the experience.

3. Replacing old fixed anchors. There a still a lot of quarter inch Rawls with Leeper hangers out there. Occasionally I even see shield drives. Climb one of the more obscure routes on Rap Rock and you will may see some, too. They are not to be trusted. There are many stories. Perhaps Bob K. can tell us the Shanashee story. mountainproject.com/v/arizo…

I think old fixed anchors should be replaced--- if new technologies do not make them unnecessary. In the Reef, after Jim’s death, a few routes got replaced. The quarter incher’s were pulled, the old holes drilled out to accept three-eights and new hangers added.

Is it better to leave old gear in place and put a new fixed anchor along side it; or, is it better to completely remove and replace? I like looking at old gear and thinking about who put it in place—take for the example the interior rap off End Pinnacle. I think it is probably better to completely remove and replace because one of the dangers of leaving old gear is that new climbers might clip it.

4. Getting permission to add fixed anchors. Always ask permission first. But what if the person is gone---Rich Thompson, Karl Rickson and Mike Strassman? In these cases I think it best to ask one of the other members of the first ascent team. Eric R.or Scott A. will probably have good idea who that might be . What if they do not? Ask the community via the Internet for permission.

5. Permission. I think most routes should not be altered even if you get permission. A few years ago, a first ascentionist who no longer climbs gave permission to bolt his gear route. He is a nice man and probably found it difficult to say “NO”—this created problems.

Tucson used to be famous for run outs. The nature of the rock, the
tediousness of hand drilling, and the intrepid early first ascentionists created many, many pants filling leads. An old Northern Arizona guidebook referred to those guys as “the Tucson run out masters.” The thinking used to be that if you could climb hard gear in Tucson then you could probably go just about anywhere. Now a days on Lemmon there seem to be about 30 bolted routes for every gear route. I fear that the old gear routes are an endangered species. This is the reason I would especially hate to see them retro-ed.

There are probably a few of those old routes that could use a bolt---but for me most of those old, scary, rarely climbed gems are wonderful reminders---that I hope never get changed. They call me to test myself. They call me to grow. Just pay close attention if you decide to attend that school.

6. Statute of Limitations. Over the years sometimes routes get started and never finished. I think it is always best to ask first, before adding fixed anchors. I am not sure when a first ascentionist is deemed to have abandoned his project. I think after a certain period of time everybody’s project should become open.
Scott M. McNamara · · Presidio San Augustine Del… · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 55

Hi RickyD,

I agree, nor did Michael's death have anything to do with bolts. All those men were prolific Southern Arizona first ascentionists from whom (unfortunately) we can no longer ask permission. May they rest in peace.

Thanks for responding.

Scott

Scott M. McNamara · · Presidio San Augustine Del… · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 55

Hi TDog,

Thanks for responding.

I am hoping, perhaps foolishly and naively, for a reasoned discussion.

I am hoping for a variety of view points.

I am hoping to learn and be better educated about our Southern Arizona climbing values.

I am probably crazy, Huh?

Scott

Scott M. McNamara · · Presidio San Augustine Del… · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 55

TDog,

If you think it is the same old BS then please help me to see it from your perspective.

What would be a new perspective?

Do new young climbers disagree?

I concede that my views are probably not modern ones.

Help me to understand.

Scott

Geir www.ToofastTopos.com · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 2,751

Hey Scott, this is great. Thanks for getting the ball rolling.

A couple of comments:

Point 3 (Replacing old fixed anchors)- Agree that old bolts should be replaced, I think consulting with the FA party would be appropriate if possible. Also I feel it's more aesthetic to to remove the old gear rather than leaving it behind.

Rick D. brought up a good point about a year ago in a related thread: it would be nice if old fixed pins were replaced only with fixed pins so that additional holes are avoided.

Point 5 (Not adding bolts to long-standing gear climbs)- Agreed. I feel that long-standing gear lines should not be bolted even if the FA gives permission. As you pointed out, these climbs can be trad testpieces.

Point 6 (Statute of Limitations)- Maybe we could state this in terms of the person actively working the project; that is, we leave the route alone as long as they are working it at least X days per month (if the weather is not too hot or too cold.)

CO_Michael · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2008 · Points: 956

I am a long time AZ resident and climber of Flag, Tucson, and PHX.

I believe that times change, gear changes, rules are not set in STONE, and I don't OWN my FAs. I think in moderation and try to act accordingly.

Here are some other opinions.

John Middendorf of A5 and AZ fame. bigwalls.net/

"I don't believe any one individual, not even the first ascentionists, have any say over what happens to their routes after they do it, but I do believe in consensus, and it's my impression that modern climbers don't place high value on"

Clint Cummins of Yosemite History and Fame

"I also agree it's best if first ascentionists do not have lifetime rights to change a route anytime. More like a "statute of limitations" - after a certain number of ascents, it's a shared experience by many and shouldn't be modified like adding bolts, unless there's a good reason or something changed on the route. "

supertopo.com/climbing/thre…

shawn bradley · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2006 · Points: 25

All existing climbs should be left alone! When I started climbing, all I could think of was getting good enough to climb those classic lines put up in bold style. Yeah, we have sticky rubber and no longer use lug soles, modern dynamic ropes rather than gold line, cams that make protecting lines a bit easier than nuts or hexes, though I am a true believer in nutcraft, but I'll be damned if some sport wanken, stick clippin', hang doggen, self rightious, entitlement generation pansy-ass faggot is gonna start duumin' shit down for himself and his but monkey posse (substitute pussies), before I get a chance to climb those visionary lines the way they were first experienced.
If you really feel the need to drive a bolt, do it on your own line and hope you have what it takes to measure up to the likes of EFR, Dave DeChamps, Jeff Mayhew, Peter Depagter, Steve Grossman to name just a few.

Garrett Gladden · · Bend, Oregon · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 75

Hey Shawn,

Maybe its just me, but it seems like my generation (which you feel very entitled to criticize and berate with abandon) is incredibly concerned with whats best for climbing. Maybe its just all of the guys I climb with here in Central Oregon, but a strong sense of tradition is alive and kicking with us young guns up here. It seems the ethic around Smith is "what is the consensus?", followed by consulting the veterans who made our sweet crag what it is. I have been following these discussions closely primarily because I think Scott's approach seems genius to me. Have some guidelines that the COMMUNITY discusses, debates and settles on. Look each other in the eye. Even if we don't completely agree. Respect each other. Have some basic sense of decency. But hey, I am part of this "entitlement" generation, so what could I possibly know?

I don't think ethical issues regarding climbing arrived only when we did at the crags...

Geir www.ToofastTopos.com · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 2,751

tdog, garrett-

please allow me to speak for a moment on shawn's behalf. he's actually an extremely likeable guy and one of the most generous people i know. he'd drop anything he's doing in a heartbeat to help out a friend.

while colorfully written, shawn's post basically comes down to a "leave the existing climbs as they are" stance. it is one i think a great many people in the community will share. the OP did invite other opinions so that we can arrive at a consensus, shawn is one of them.

let's see how the various opinions on these matters square up and not get too hung up on how they are expressed.

regards,
geir

Hampton Uzzelle · · Tucson, Arizona · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 5

Scott,
I have not climbed any of the climbs or talked to any of people involved in the most recent S. Arizona ethics flare-up's (so please correct me if I have misread the situation)

The issue of adding chicken bolts seems pretty cut and dry.-Just don't do it. I think a grayer issue is that of bolts on variations to existing routes. It seems like in both the most recent case of Dave D's route, and the Endgame issue from a year or so ago, that a variation to a route has offended the FA of the original line and the offending bolt or line was chopped.

I'm curious about the community's take on these variations and what the community feels is an acceptable way for the FA of a variation to go about placing fixed gear. I'm am also curious about what people think of bolts on routes that cross existing lines.

FWIW, I think the least destructive course of action is for the FA of the variation to consult the FA of the original line and respect that person's opinion.(Even if it means that we don't get to climb every line imaginable)

Jenna Ashler · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 15
Hampton Uzzelle wrote: FWIW, I think the least destructive course of action is for the FA of the variation to consult the FA of the original line and respect that person's opinion.(Even if it means that we don't get to climb every line imaginable)
+1
Jenna Ashler · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 15
TDog wrote:Shawn, there is a book for you "How to Win Friends and Influence People". Your going to need a lot more help than that. The book is just a start. I am going to place a bet that angry, ignorant, a-holes aren't looking to be better people.
I agree that How to Win Friends and Influence People is a book we all need to read. I've needed it and own a copy. It is amazing how up to date a 70 year old book can be.

Can you please reread your statement in light of the principles this book teaches?

A quote from Chapter 1 : "Benjamin Franklin...became so adroit at handling people, that he was made American Ambassador to France. The secret of his success? 'I will speak ill of no man, and speak all the good I know of everybody.' Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do. But it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.
Jon Ruland · · Tucson, AZ · Joined May 2007 · Points: 651
Jenna Ashler wrote: I agree that How to Win Friends and Influence People is a book we all need to read. I've needed it and own a copy. It is amazing how up to date a 70 year old book can be. Can you please reread your statement in light of the principles this book teaches? A quote from Chapter 1 : "Benjamin Franklin...became so adroit at handling people, that he was made American Ambassador to France. The secret of his success? 'I will speak ill of no man, and speak all the good I know of everybody.' Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do. But it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.
a book that has changed my life. possibly the best 200 pages anyone can read.
shawn bradley · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2006 · Points: 25

win friends, influence people. Yeah, whatever. I read it to. I've also read thread after thread about retro bolting of some kind or another. This is more of the same. The OP posed a question to which there is only one answer. NO. Anyone who feels the need to add a bolt to an existing line should ask themselves why THEY need to do it. Do they not have the physical ability or, more likely, the mental game to pull it off. Guess what, there aint no shame in that. There is far more shame in altering someone elses hard work and vision than there is in honestly assesing your own skill and walking away. I've never been repelled by a line and walked away thinking "that could use a/another bolt". It was always "damn, I wasn't good enough to get to that bolt/placement" It just provides motivation to improve.

I'll throw you a bone. If someone unknowingly places bolts on a route because folks refuse to publish their lines, are they at fault.

For example, I spot a sweet line and take of on lead. I set a bolt, say 20' up. I continue another 15' and place another. 10' further, I'm shocked and dissmayed, a bolt. Someones been here before. But how? I've found nothing in any guide book on this formation! What shall I do?

Common courtesy and respect dictate (or should dictate) that you don't add bolts to existing routes. By the same token, if you author a line you should publish it, if for no other reason than to let others know it exists.

P.S
Thanks Geir

Albert Newman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 0

Scott,

I believe your idea is a step in the right direction in being a proactive approach to dealing with some of these important issues. It's obvious that for better or worse climbing has going through some radical changes in the last ten years.
I absolutely agree that access to many climbing areas is in peril. Somebody once said that organizing climbers is like herding kittens, but at least this sort of forum allows people to air their beliefs. From it's inception climbing was steeped in tradition and am not so sure this is the case these days.
Went to a popular new local crag yesterday ten minutes from one of the busiest highways in the state (area to be published in book form soon) and was absolutely disgusted with the amount of garbage, 600+ ft. fixed ropes and shiny chain anchors. I cannot imagine what a wilderness ranger would think, yet am fairly certain it would not lead to a positive outcome.
Thank you for making this effort. I hope to make some positive contributions, if nothing else looking forward to reading productive comments and dialogue on these matters.
Albert Newman
Flagstaff

Scott M. McNamara · · Presidio San Augustine Del… · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 55

Hi All,

Thanks so much for your comments. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Shawn, interesting point about publishing routes. I will make it next month’s topic.

Hampton, it was nice to meet you and your crew. I will make “variations” the following month's topic.

I met Hampton at a new area called “Raycreation.” mountainproject.com/v/arizo…

We climbed in the upper area. I played on the 8, 9 and some of the 10s. They were quite good. Many thanks to the first ascentionists and those who contributed. Check it out if you get the chance.

Scott

Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280

As far as what generation cares the most, or who gets the most criticism, just take a look at the numbers. 30 years ago, let's say there were 10,000 climbers nationwide. Probably less than 5% were 'sport' bolters of any kind back then. Their small number did not make the appearance on the crags or have the influence back then. AND there was no internet to display everything. You had to wait for a story to show up in Summit, Climbing or Rock and Ice. And the number of young climbers was much less.
Now, we have , just say 100,000 climbers(obviously more, just a number for simple comparison). Of those 100,000 today, probably at least half are sport climbers and use or place bolts on routes. From 500 to 50,000 climbers in the thick of it., thus they ARE noticed more not just by percentage but by sheer numbers. Add the influx of indoor gym climbers to the mix and it's an amazing amount. Thus there are many more concerns and outcrys today about this issue, and the media for bringing it to attention more often. Few climbers by % from 30 years ago are today's sport-bolt crowd, thus the message gets sent to the younger ones out there, again just by their sheer numbers on the cliffs. Outnumbering the 'old guard' does not alway justify 'change' in ethics or route respect. Agree that there will be a huge philosophy difference in the community over the years ahead on this issue.

Brigette Beasley · · Monroe, WA · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 275

It seems as though there is an assumption that whomever puts up a route knows what they're doing, i.e. has years of experience, knowledge of rock quality, fall angle, etc. What if the opposite is true in a particular case?

Any idiot can go buy a drill and hangers. Shoot! I could. :)

I am not advocating any one course of action, just asking the following question: "What if a route is put up not in 'bold style' with some sketch factor for less-bold climbers, but in 'idiot style' with significant unnecessary risk to life and limb solely as a result of the FA's lack of knowledge?"

Albert Newman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 0

TDog,
Thank you for the reply. I am getting in touch with the developers. You bring up a very good point. It might not be a "Wilderness Ranger", it could be a concerned ecologist, "environmentalist" or maybe just a disturbed climber or hiker who gets climbing shut down in an area. If closure happens on one Forest or another it could have national ramifications.

Shawn,
I like what you mention about getting stronger for certain routes and not adding bolts to established lines.
There is the legend of Geoff Parker getting a few pitches up the Mace on his wild "new" route in the early 70's only to find the traverse bolt from the first ascent some 15 years earlier.
If I drilled and was 50' up a route and found a bolt, historical tradition suggests that I remove my chicken bolts.
I am not certain that it is a good idea that all routes or areas be published and look forward to future online rants.

It seems reasonable that substandard anchors be equipped with more modern gear if it is necessary to "safely" complete the route. I completely agree with Scott in that some natural climbs are diminished by the addition of bolted anchors even if it means carrying a few extra cams.
There are probably 20 bolts that I regret putting in versus the 2 or 3 that should probably be there that are not. In any case it might be a good idea to contact the person who first did the climb if you plan on drilling an established route.

Scott thank you for getting this discussion rolling.

Jimbo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,310

Brigette,
Valid point. One would hope the rookie first ascensionist would be open to advice from the more experienced climbing population and make the appropriate changes to his or her new line. Thereby learning something that will help them produce better new routes in the future. If the route originator refuses to make any of the suggested changes to his or her route the climbing community as no right to step in and make the changes anyway. Word will get around, the route won't get climbed and the FAers bad reputation will be affirmed.
Bad routes don't get climbed, good routes do.

Geir,
I disagree about replacing old pins with newer pins. Once you bang out a pin you often need to put in a slightly bigger one. Pretty soon you've got pin scars that can protect with cams. From a preservation of the rock stand point a 3/8" hole with a hanger is a lot less damage than a constantly expanding pin scar, and a bolt hanger is no more of an eyesore than a rusty pin sticking out of a thin crack.

Jimbo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,310

Hampton,
Variations to existing routes have been the norm since the beginning, and aren't by definiteness's a bad thing. The difference is the variations "back in the day" weren't created by adding a line of bolts. One figured one could wiggle in a few pieces and get to that other feature over there. Nobody ever had a problem with this and most were eager to try the new variation.

The problem arises when certain first ascensionists fancy their route a masterpiece, and claim any variation may obscure their original line, which is of course sacrosanct. A second problem arises when the very same first ascensionist is busy doing new routes all over the states that cross existing lines with some regularity.

Having done a few FA's in my life I have no problem with somebody seeing a line that busts off one of my routes and does some cool climbing out right or left. I'm doing new routes I'm not painting the Mono Lisa.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
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