new bolts at Duncan's Ridge

Hello everybody,

Without opening too big of a can of worms... There have been two new sets of double bolt anchors added at Duncan's Ridge in the last couple months. What are your thoughts on these? I do a lot of work with the Northern Colorado Climbers Coalition and we're looking for some community input on this.

don't start any bolt wars. I'm not taking sides, but if they are placed well, in good locations, and will provide safe reliable anchors then just let them be.

The vast majority of people either boulder or top-rope the routes at Duncans, and top-rope anchors are readily available for anyone with enough scratch to buy some webbing. I personally believe bolt anchors are not necessary for Fort Collins crags. I'm going to chop them... Not really.

i guess now that i live 3000 miles away my opinion doesn't really matter, but i'll weigh in anyway because my heart's still in Ft. Collins.

i think that it's a little uncool that someone put bolts in up there; Duncan's Ridge has been a reasonably popular top-roping area for years without them, and i never had too much trouble building reasonable gear anchors the couple times I climbed there. so, my opinion is that they're not necessary.

that said, I think it's worth pointing that it isn't the sort of place where folks go to get hard, and it's not a huge area with a shitload of history like Lumpy Ridge or Eldorado Canyon, or even Rotary Park. what it is, however, is a small crag that (mostly) Ft. Co locals use to get into the sport; these anchors will likely help the crag serve its current purpose more effectively. also, i can think of a few aspects of the cliff that get TR'ed from "off-center" anchors, and bolts would prevent swinging TR falls. if the anchors are placed over these routes i think they should be left alone in the interest of neighborliness.

EDIT: i can't help but wonder if the person who placed these anchor bolts was also responsible for retro-bolting lines at Greyrock. that shit made me sick to my stomach.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but is this a "shoot first, ask questions later" situation? Did NCCC have something to do with the bolts going in, or is that not the case?

I'd say the bolts aren't necessary for TR anchors and therefore shouldn't be there. But, it's true what Aaron said, we're talking about a 40 foot tall mini-crag. Now that the bolts are in, seems like the "damage" is done and chopping them isn't worth it. Certainly not worth a bolt war.

Kevin Landolt wrote:I personally believe bolt anchors are not necessary for Fort Collins crags.

Does that include all those pesky bolt anchors up the Poudre?

Anyone know what the policy is on bolting at Duncan's, Rotary, Piano, etc? I would really, really hate to lose access up there. If anyone is bolting, please make sure that you seek out these policies and obey so you don't endanger access... PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

If you do know what the bolting policy is, can you please provide a link to some legitimate documentation? Thanks!!

Please leave them! The only reason that I haven't climbed there more often is because I can't gather enough gear to set up a TR anchor. Let's be honest, the people climbing at this crag are typically less experienced and probably don't have that much gear. This new hardware will open the doors for a lot more people to enjoy this mini-crag.

Just to clarify. The NC3 did not place them. We're just looking for polite opinions on the area.

A lot of that property is owned by Dr. Magsamen. He owns the house across from Piano. I doubt he would care, or even notice. If it is off of his property, then no one is gonna care, leave them be. I think it is fine to upgrade areas, even if people have been going there for years...it is an area of convenience, not a classic climb. Its not like if someone chipped Mental block, or drew some arrows one it with paint.

They are not necessary. I think it's beneficial for people to build the anchors themselves. It's a great place to learn. That's where I first went climbing, set up anchors and did trad leads.

Don't add anymore and don't chop the ones that are up there already.

Although, the newish set (actually I only saw one hanger and one exposed bolt last time I looked) to the climbers left of the Corner Climb is totally unnecessary. Those baffle me. The set to the climbers right of the Dihedral and Roof Route are more reasonable (these are the only camo ones).

-edited

Reed,

While most of the routes up there can be lead cleanly on gear....We need to concede that this is primarily a TR area.

I frequently visit Duncan's ridge (10-20x/yr), but over the past 10 years I've seen a considerable amount of erosion up on the top of the cliff band. I've seen some truly horrifying TR anchors there and it would take a bit of work and jiggery-pokery for a beginner climber to set a bomber TR anchor. Some might say that's how we all learn....

With those two points in mind, I don't think that Duncan's needs or warrants fixed lead protection in the form of bolts.

However, there is already a precedent set (at least 10+) years earlier with the roof routes at Rotary and the bolts atop the corner climb at Duncan's. I think that bolted TR anchors that can either mitigate erosion on the top of the cliff band OR provide a safe TR anchor for climbs that cannot be reasonably set up with bomber gear TR anchors are within reason.

Perhaps a statement from the NCCC on the bolts and move towards a community consensus on all fixed hardware. Eldorado's ACE does a very nice job reviewing fixed hardware proposals.

~john

Cota wrote:A lot of that property is owned by Dr. Magsamen. He owns the house across from Piano. I doubt he would care, or even notice. If it is off of his property, then no one is gonna care, leave them be. I think it is fine to upgrade areas, even if people have been going there for years...it is an area of convenience, not a classic climb. Its not like if someone chipped Mental block, or drew some arrows one it with paint.

According to the Larmier County website, Duncan's ridge is not on Dr. Magsamen's property, but on public land.

If they are well placed bolts, I believe that they should be left alone under one exception. That is, if in any way placing the bolts violated the rules of the public land they are on.

climber73 wrote:Anyone know what the policy is on bolting at Duncan's, Rotary, Piano, etc? I would really, really hate to lose access up there. If anyone is bolting, please make sure that you seek out these policies and obey so you don't endanger access... PLEASE!!!!!!!!! If you do know what the bolting policy is, can you please provide a link to some legitimate documentation? Thanks!!

I agree! horsetooth has a long standing climbing history and we don't want to loose this.

Can we get some bolt anchors on top of the Piano Boulder as well?

Ryan - Regarding bolt anchors up Poudre Canyon - I don't believe you can relate the two. Duncans is predominately a bouldering/top-rope crag with easy access (walk on / walk off)and is no more than thirty-five feet high in most areas. I've never even seen anyone lead climbing there, (while hords of silly folks lead Cat's Eye Roof at Rotary...). I think I, and the majority of folks who climb at Duncans, don't even top-rope, we just enjoy the moderate highballish bouldering. Skip Harper once told me he'd train for big alpine climbs and expeditions by running laps up Duncans, climbing and down-climbing every route he could East to West.

Poudre Canyon Crags? Predominately Sport Crags with most routes being well over thirty feet high. They were also developed as bolted-sport crags - most of it just in the past five-ten years, while people have been climbing up at Duncans Ridge for ages (forty plus years?)without the use of bolted TR anchors.
Also, it would be difficult, and in many cases impossible to just top-rope routes in Poudre Canyon, as there's often no easy or plausible 3rd or 4th class access to the top of the route in which someone could set up a TR anchor. Whole different can of warms in my opinion. Many of the classic slab routes at Greyrock were bolted on lead by Jim Brink, Craig Luebben, the Skipper and other bold folks - I know the recent retrobolting of those routes offended many as Aaron stated above - note bolts were actually added to existing routes (sometimes doubling the total count) - not just replaced.

This aggression will not stand, man.

Here is the NCCC's understanding of the land that Duncan's is on:

The majority of cliffline is on Larimer County property, however, the south end is on Bureau of Reclamation property (and is technically closed as a result) and the north end is bordered by private property. The access trail is considered a social trail and all the impacts that climbers have are unaccounted for in the Larimer County management plan.

So basically Larimer county has to this point let climbers manage this climbing resource themselves. The bolting issue has always been a problem at Duncans ridge, and there is no formal bolting or climbing policy there. We really need to come together as a climbing community to ensure that Duncan's is available to climbers in the future, regardless of what hunks of metal may or may not be in the rock.

Here is a rough consensus from MtnProj comments and outside research we have accumulated:
1. Bolted anchors are not necessary because of natural protection (trees, trad gear, etc)
2. Bolted anchors that have been placed on the cliff-top should be camouflaged and installed with stainless steel certified bolts.
3. No new bolts or anchors should be added, but the current ones should be left assuming they meet criteria in point #2. If not they should be removed and updated with proper hardware.

We are not assuming that Mtn Project is the only source to find consensus in the community. We are also contacting local climbers who are directly involved with this cliff and may not be involved with Mountain Project.

Please continue to post your thoughts about this important subject.

thanks
Ben Scott
Northern Colorado Climbers Coalition (NCCC)

Jake Carroll wrote:Please leave them! The only reason that I haven't climbed there more often is because I can't gather enough gear to set up a TR anchor. Let's be honest, the people climbing at this crag are typically less experienced and probably don't have that much gear. This new hardware will open the doors for a lot more people to enjoy this mini-crag.

Please. I grew up a couple miles from Duncans, and spent hundreds of hours up there during high school (and during my undergrad at CSU). That was in the late 1970s, and I hardly had more than a coil of goldline, and handful of 1" tubular webbing, and a bunch of nuts, many of those homemade (and no, I'm no hardman). I don't recall every having much problem setting up a TR anywhere on the ridge between the dam and the Roof Route area.

I'd recommend pulling the bolts if you can do it cleanly, and fill the holes with an epoxy/rock flour mix. If you can't, leave them.

swm

Kevin,

That was a very well-reasoned and thorough response to my completely facetious question.

The Dude abides...

... and thorough.

bump

bolts up at duncan's... the next new sport area?