Biner on Biner

I see people sometimes extend their draws by connecting another draw via biner. So you have piece of gear, biner, draw, biner, biner, draw biner, rope. Hope that makes sense. It seems to me that you would not want that additional biner in the mix, but is there any technical reason why you could not have it there?

Shouldn't a thread with this title be in the community forum? Sounds NSFW to me...

I've always been taught that when you are doing that you don't want metal on metal. Something about how it wears the biners and how it can create more stress. While this seems seems to make sense to me it makes me wonder about clipping bolts. That is technically metal to metal and would produce the same type of wear on a biner but oh well.

Since I usually am running short on biners I just take off one of the biners from the draw and go that way.

Or was I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting.... something else.

if the title were jugs and tugs...maybe you could expect more! haha

guess I just think one less cog in the system is best, less to go wrong.

It's not just the metal on metal, it's the chance of it twisting and creating torque on the 'biner, etc. Needs a runner for sure every time.

Errrrr....
ianbuckley.net/MVI_2445.AVI

Ian Buckley wrote:Errrrr.... ianbuckley.net/MVI_2445.AVI

I feel like I could make an equally "scary" movie by making a sling unclip from a biner just as easily...

That being said, I agree with the "one less cog in the system" statement. If you used 2 quickdraws clipped together to make a long draw you have 4 biners to potentially unclip, whereas if you have one long sling or two slings connected with one biner you only have 2 or 3 biners that could unclip.

Also, the rotational torque thing that somebody else said likely hold merit...

If metal on metal is a problem than sport climbing itself is dangerous. I would say the only reason it’s a problem is because it’s an unnecessary link in the chain and it could be the weak point that makes the difference.

The only time that I'll do a biner linked with another biner is at an anchor if I'm trying to achieve maximum equalization and doing so makes it the right length to load the pieces evenly. Most of the time I just do sliding Xs, but there are still occasions where throwing an extra biner in there simplifies everything (I use lockers when doing this).

That's all I got; can't really come up with a need to do so on a draw clipped to a bolt while on lead... but maybe you have a different scenario in mind?

Woodchuck ATC wrote:It's not just the metal on metal, it's the chance of it twisting and creating torque on the 'biner, etc. Needs a runner for sure every time.

I personally dont buy this. It's not like doing a carabiner break is bad for biners, or the even more extended versions that you can see in Freedom of the Hills that are used for rescue lowering.

I think the biggest "danger" is that when you have two biners clipped to each other, if they aren't kept under tension, then are rigid and can unclip/backclip against each other more easily than a sling would. That's just my own observations, anyway.

argh, after a hard day, I clicked the beaner on beaner only to find this crap. I mean is this the all the thanks I get or what??

It's not just the metal on metal issue.
1) Two biners are more likely to cross-load the strongest axis (weaker rading).
2) As well, there are two gates, which could open, in a dynamic (often chaotic) situation. Rather than only one.

Rschap wrote:If metal on metal is a problem than sport climbing itself is dangerous. I would say the only reason it’s a problem is because it’s an unnecessary link in the chain and it could be the weak point that makes the difference.

Metal biner on bolt hanger is acceptable, as the biner is then linked with the sling on the quickdraw for the needed flexible part. It's hard to believe that the 30's-60's era climbers who clipped ropes directly to their pitons didn't have endless problems(maybe they did!), with them constantly working loose due to the torque and forces that could be applied. Maybe a few nasty errors led them to start using runners on all placements soon after. Agree with the 2 gates and the unweighted situations being just more of the biner-on-biner dangers.

In general, I think its a good idea to avoid, but I've seen more than one AMGA guide hang a big HMS biner on the masterpoint and clip belay, themselves, and partners into it.

Not worried about locker on locker in any way...'stacking' biners is helpful for rescue, belaying, etc.

Non-locker to non-locker on lead pro is more likely to result in carabiner unclipping as stated many times above.

AMGA does teach the use of a 'master biner' when a 'master point' is not easily usable in an anchor. Other lockers clip into this 'master locker'.

ditto what eli said. the metal on metal myth is pretty weird. if that's the case, you couldn't clip a draw into a bolt hanger, or a stopper, or a piton, or ......

What about aid climbing, where there can be crab on crab action coming off the pro?

Evan Horvath aka Evan1984 wrote:In general, I think its a good idea to avoid, but I've seen more than one AMGA guide hang a big HMS biner on the masterpoint and clip belay, themselves, and partners into it.

Eli Helmuth wrote:Not worried about locker on locker in any way...'stacking' biners is helpful for rescue, belaying, etc. Non-locker to non-locker on lead pro is more likely to result in carabiner unclipping as stated many times above. AMGA does teach the use of a 'master biner' when a 'master point' is not easily usable in an anchor. Other lockers clip into this 'master locker'.

This is exactly right. I took a course through CMS this spring and that is exactly what they taught us was a "master biner" and you clip your belay, yourself and your partner into it. I asked him about the biner on biner action and he said, "tell me a reason that would cause it to fail..." Yeah, couldn't come up with one.

The only thing I can think of is you would use a big pear or HMS biner for this and if you clip 3-4 things into it, the one closest to the gate could cause loading down the gate instead of the spine which isn't ideal.

Andrew Haag wrote: The main danger in clipping a biner to a biner is you increase your risk of being struck by lightning!!! Gota be carefull! Ive also read that it pissis off the perigrin falcons.

Not to mention static build up...

Evan Horvath aka Evan1984 wrote:In general, I think its a good idea to avoid, but I've seen more than one AMGA guide hang a big HMS biner on the masterpoint and clip belay, themselves, and partners into it.

Biner on LOCKED biner does not suffer the "rotate them and voila" unclipping that 2 or more non-locking biners can do.

Anyone who thinks there's a physical reason why metal-on-metal is generally weak probably believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and microfractures. Sport climbing, aid climbing, and rescue would be impossible without M-o-M connections. Get over it.