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Aid rig: 8.1mm dynamic adjustable daisies

Original Post
Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759

Here's the aid rig that will hopefully avoid the dreaded daisy fall while maintaining a low FusterCluck index.
I've only done some bolt-to-bolt aiding across the roof of the gym so far, so I can't give much of a review yet. I do like how small and light the CAMP Lift ascenders are. I may file the edges at the end of the lever, but there will be a relatively small radius there which may cut the rope in a hard fall, regardless.
Clove-hitching into the anchor on the knot side of the ascenders gives a full strength reliable personal attachment.
So far, I like it:

8.1mm dynamic rope as daisy, CAMP Lift ascenders on each biner.

CAMP Lift ascender - very small and lightweight, can be pulled smoothly either direction.

CAMP Lift ascender - no teeth, but a daisy fall would put the rope over the small radius at the end of the lever since this is being used upside-down...

Thoughts? opinions? [I know: 'Yer gonna' die!!']

john greer · · modesto · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 110

looks cool. might be good speed rig?
the rope has to be better than a daisy.
why not have the 2 ladders on 2 seperate ropes for more flexibility?

john greer · · modesto · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 110

oh i forgot

YUR GONNA DIE!

Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759

I kept it as one rope to minimize the tie-in distance and bulk. Although I have an overhand-on-a-bight here, I tried it as a clove hitch through both tie-in points at the center and it's even more compact.
True, two separate daisies would add options, but I rarely need to disconnect a single daisy from my harness...

Luke Stefurak · · Seattle, WA · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 2,573

A similar thing has been done with USHABA ascenders instead of the Camp Lift.

There is some info on here but I couldn't find a good photo.

supertopo.com/climbing/thre…

Enjoy,

Luke

Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759

Yeah, Kate's method was the impetus for the idea.
Ushbas cost too much.

Jon Cheifitz · · Superior/Lafayette, Co · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 90

Since your so crafty, do you think it would be possible to create a swivel like on the BD spinner ice leashes to help keep the cluster down even more? yes you would loose the full strength aspect, but you could probably get something figured out that still plenty strong.
-Jon

Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759

Since etriers can't hurt you when you let 'em fly loose, I just drop whichever one is free as I move from piece to piece instead of clipping it back to my harness. The swivel would make you sacrifice too much distance between the tie-in and the piece. Then you might have to bring back the fifi hook (not necessary with this system.)

Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145

I seem to recall reading a report that showed Ushbas severing the rope at ~4kN when loaded dynamically. Given how similar this mechanism is I wonder how it would do?

Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759

Aric-
Do you recall if the Ushba test had them oriented in the normal orientation? I assume they did the drop to simulate a lead belay or a self-belayed long toprope fall. This system wraps the rope around that lever since the device is upside down - could break the rope at 4 kN or even sooner.
Are those Ancra buckles on adjustable daisies/(Home Depot car tie-downs) rated?

John Shultz · · Osaka, Japan · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 50

Right on, hombre. That is a rig I want to try out. Do you have a source for lengths of 8.1 dynamic rope, or is that a cut down from a full length cord?

Cheers from Osaka,
john

Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759

If you need some skinny line, just hang out with clumsy ice climbers - sooner or later they'll core-shot a brand new rope and you'll be set.
(Although mine came from half of a friend's twin set that got ruined on its first alpine outing by rockfall)

James Arnold · · Chattanooga · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 55

Looks pretty interesting. I can tell you know what's up by the kong keylock oval. I hoarded those things when I climbed walls bitd.

I tried a number of ways including adj. fifis and other accoutrements. The adj. daisies with cams worked okay but occasionally released themselves in weird situations....rather unnerving.

Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266

John,

Several years back you used to be able to search google for "rope ends". They would sell the remnants from a spool in odd sizes. Seems that is hard to find now days, not sure why.

Gregger,

As for the daisy fall, have you tried top stepping and letting go with this set up to see how the catch is?

Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759

Gearexpress.com sells short rope cut-offs from spools, but they don't often have skinny lines for sale in that section of their website.

Haven't had the pleasure of top-stepping yet with this rig. While I was doing the overhanging gym lead it was pretty easy to adjust the length and it didn't let go as I thrutched around.
I'll give it a go next Saturday and report back.

Moof · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 25
Gear Express is the only short rope source I know of these days, but they only have down to 9.2mm at the moment.

I am running a similar rig using Wild Country Hand ascenders, but these require an extra biner, which is just a bit longer than I like. I'm using 8.8mm rope, since I had an old double I wasn't using (and frankly was older than I would ever want to use for real climbing). overall it is a nice system. No swivel is necessary, as the rope resolves twisties all on its own, a massive frustration with strap style adjustables.

I also have found that it is harder to yard on the skinny rope than the wide strap, and I wore a hole in my finger after a half dozen pitches.

Jugging is an issue, I tie knots, but they still self shorten at just the wrong moments. I thing a rubber band might fix that.
Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145

Couple things-

@Gregger- Not ignoring you; trying to remember where I saw the article. It went through one of the usual forums ~6 months back, but for the life of me I can't remember which one. I finally have some free time just now, so will hopefully find it shortly.

@People looking for short thin ropes, if you don't mind buying 30m they're fairly easy to get as glacier walking ropes. They're usually ~8.something and rated as twins or doubles. Beal Rando comes to mind, as does an Edelrid rope I have sitting upstairs that I'm forgetting the name of. Both seem perfect for this application, which is why I have them (I'm working on a device specifically for this).

-a.

EDIT- How embarrassing.... The thread I was thinking of was here on MP. Clicky!

Seems you saw the thread Gregger, so I guess you know as much about it as I do. FWIW I pulled some Beal Rando through my Ushba in the Ushba-clippied-to-a-piece orientation, but I didn't make note of the force the sheath parted at since I was just curious if it would slip before breaking. I'd rig it up again, but unfortunately the Ushba didn't survive disassembly/reassembly (I assumed the pin it locks on was steel rather than titanium, and snapped it during reassembly. I'll get around to machining a new one eventually....)

Oh, and I've got a pair of those Ancra buckles (one FISH, one YATES) sitting here courtesy of John McNamee (IIRC) that I've been needing to break for ages (along with a Metolius Easy Daisy). Too many projects and too little time... :-(

BTW, I seem to recall Russ@FISH saying the web will break in those buckles ~2000% in a slow pull. (he's the one who pulled me into the daisy testing project)

John McNamee · · Littleton, CO · Joined Jul 2002 · Points: 1,690

Welcome back Aric!

Gregger, Looks like a intriguing system you have put together here and a good alternative to the more expensive system using the ushbas. Maybe just the ticket for hard aid. Let us know once you get some good field testing in.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

looks good, Greg. might actually make fusterclucking a bit more fun; call it the G-Lite rig

Steve Williams · · The state of confusion · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 235

Hey Greg
I've finally got a Russian aider setup that I'm really
looking forward to trying out. . .
once I finish school!

Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759

Spent a few minutes this morning in the gym with the CAMP Lift setup on a vertical wall. I like it.
Planning to use this on Muir Wall next June.
I'll probably want to take a few short falls on it to determine the likelihood of breaking/deforming one of the ascenders.
I'll definitely take a couple of replacement 8.0mm cords as well.

Video here [no audio]:

youtube.com/watch?v=SerAuTW…

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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