who chopped turbo trad?

England wrote: WOW!!!!!! Please remember that a new generation of climbers are reading this stuff. I CAN"T believe that you would condone these actions. I guess I'm going to agree with "MOUNTAIN PROJECT DECLINE". Actually I don't even think, "comfortized" is a word.

hmmmm, no offense dude, but where have you been? Comfortizing holds on limestone has been around since way before the "new" generation. Shit, go look in the original Wild Iris stapled guidebook by Paul Piana....and I quote:

"More and more people are climbing. More and more people are establishing new climbs. This increased activity coupled with increased environmental awareness makes it imperative that all of us equate 'good style' with a first ascencionist's end product. Tips: Take your hammer or a prybar and break off the loose flakes that will otherwise kill your belayer and establish your reputation as a crud climber. The medium you are climbing on is often incredibly sharp. DO blunt the edges of these flesh ripping pockets with a file. While repeating routes, think about which climbs you enjoyed...were the pockets razors or pleasant (pleasant does not mean 'easy') to grasp. If the climbs weren't sharp, then some of the holds on them were filed. The choice is yours and you can leave it a crumbling, snapping mess or a well manicured contribution that will be popular and/or well regarded. If you are not up to the necessary work, a slipshod effort will only get you a crappy climb and a tarnished name." - Paul Piana 1994.

This ethos is FAR different than manufacturing holds, chipping, gluing, etc. that goes on in places like the limestone outside of Vegas.

J. Albers wrote: hmmmm, no offense dude, but where have you been? Comfortizing holds on limestone has been around since way before the "new" generation. Shit, go look in the original Wild Iris stapled guidebook by Paul Piana....and I quote: "More and more people are climbing. More and more people are establishing new climbs. This increased activity coupled with increased environmental awareness makes it imperative that all of us equate 'good style' with a first ascencionist's end product. Tips: Take your hammer or a prybar and break off the loose flakes that will otherwise kill your belayer and establish your reputation as a crud climber. The medium you are climbing on is often incredibly sharp. DO blunt the edges of these flesh ripping pockets with a file. While repeating routes, think about which climbs you enjoyed...were the pockets razors or pleasant (pleasant does not mean 'easy') to grasp. If the climbs weren't sharp, then some of the holds on them were filed. The choice is yours and you can leave it a crumbling, snapping mess or a well manicured contribution that will be popular and/or well regarded. If you are not up to the necessary work, a slipshod effort will only get you a crappy climb and a tarnished name." - Paul Piana 1994. This ethos is FAR different than manufacturing holds, chipping, gluing, etc. that goes on in places like the limestone outside of Vegas.

Just because Paul Piana said it's OK, makes it OK..LAME

I'm assuming you don't climb any limestone, ever, then huh?

England wrote: Just because Paul Piana said it's OK, makes it OK..LAME

At what point did I say 'because Paul says its ok, its ok'? I think you missed the point. Your original argument was that the 'new' generation must be instructed correctly. The point of my quoting Paul was simply to put a date stamp on the fact that comfortizing has been around for quite a long time, and yes, Paul does seem to make a valid argument. You can call it lame all you want, but there are surely routes that you have been on and you didn't even know they had been filed.

On top of this, you state that because Mono speaks about comfortizing that he is misguiding the 'youth' and you infer that he is part of the reason why MP is in decline. Your unsubstantiated 'lame' comment and your lack of an argument contributes more to the dumbing down of MP than Mono's explanation of comfortizing.

England is probably the kind of guy that would climb a route that has pin scars and not think of that as manufacturing.

Eric Whitbeck wrote:Thanks for keeping my work day entertaining. So, who did chop the route?

Eric, you totally know that I did it and was planning to fill the crack with Sika but ran out of time that day.

W

England wrote: WOW!!!!!! Please remember that a new generation of climbers are reading this stuff. I CAN"T believe that you would condone these actions. I guess I'm going to agree with "MOUNTAIN PROJECT DECLINE". Actually I don't even think, "comfortized" is a word.

In the Garden of the Gods whole routes are comfortized by use

England wrote: WOW!!!!!!....Actually I don't even think, "comfortized" is a word.

I did not check out the free trial they were offering but, from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

Comfortize, it turns out, isn't in the free Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, where you just searched.

However, it is available in our premium Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary. To see that definition in the Unabridged Dictionary,

England wrote: WOW!!!!!! Please remember that a new generation of climbers are reading this stuff. I CAN"T believe that you would condone these actions. I guess I'm going to agree with "MOUNTAIN PROJECT DECLINE". Actually I don't even think, "comfortized" is a word.

Come on. There isn't a climbing area in the world that hasn't been changed for climbers benefit. Even those beautiful sandstone towers in East Germany have giant ring bolts and rap anchors on the tops. I call bullshit on any climber who claims that their habits don't impact the area they climb in.

Just yesterday I was on the second pitch of a climb that I am developing and had no choice but to alter the rock. Sure it's an adventure for me to be up there with razor sharp holds and loose boulders but I don't want everyone to have to deal with that shit. Next thing I know some gumby goes up there and shreds his rope or knocks a boulder onto the beach below and kills someone. That would get climbing areas all over Thailand shut down. Not to mention that it makes me responsible for someone getting killed!

BTW, we're bolting 300 feet of rock that probably could be an R rated trad route! No trad gear in Thailand and the locals don't know how to use the gear anyways so we bolt everything. We accommodate. We bolt with bomber Titanium bolts that will last longer that any of us will! That is our ethics, give the climbing to the locals. I bet you'd have a problem with that too?

You've pulled down on your fair share of "comfortized" and even manufactured holds without even knowing it! If you ask me, making a big deal about it only takes away from your own experience.

Climb, have fun, and try to take care of the area that you climb in. But get off your high horse and take responsibility for your actions. Every climbing area in the world would be better off WITHOUT US! and thinking anything different is ignorance.

djkyote wrote: Bruno, I love a man with a mustache and a combover. I'll hold your rope while you drill crack anytime. PM me.

classic!

+1 for the comment on this thread covering all aspects of climbing ethics and styles

It's true that local ethics are important. In soviet russia, holds comfortize you!!!!

Some closure hopefully, full disclosure, this is second hand info from a reliable source.

The individual who chopped the route has come forward. I believe that this individual probably had the "right" intentions from having talked with him about climbing and some ethics in the past. He however did not speak with anyone from the community about it before taking action. He has apologized to the FA and feels that in this situation he made a mistake.

Thanks for the update Lee. Question though... Does this mean that he is going to go and fix the mess they created? Or at least at a minimum, pony up the cash for the hardware so that someone in the community can go and fix the route?

J.A.- The route will get fixed, in the near future, I believe. I do not know how ever if the individual responsible will be contributing in one form or another to restoring the route.

Sure, keep it unbolted but rename it Retro-Trad after it is sent ;)

Best of luck sending Kevin, I'll be up there sometime this season to take a look as well.

W

Just a thought. If you wanted to not clip the bolts cant you just skip them and place your own gear? That way everyone gets what they want. When people in boulder canyon free china doll they don't chop the bolts they just skip them and place gear.

No one even got out guns? Come on pussies, this is a turf war. I've been a little preoccupied lately or else I would be blastin bitches for sure. You gonna let em punk you like that Kevin? Shiat, I thought you were my N....What did I lone you my gat for?

Kevin Jaramillo wrote: I expected some talk about the bolt removal, but I didn’t expect it to snowball into talk about bolts wars.

You may have been climbing in NM for 20 years but you're obviously new to the Internet and how the act of altering a route that has been up for 15 year is going to be received by a vocal portion of the online crowd.

If you want to defend these actions online, you should start by telling everyone that you did this with the help and consent of the FA. (assuming this is the case)

Most people accept the principle that the FA get's to set the character of a route. There are exceptions to this of course but in my experience, this is the common ethic in most places in the US.

Cheers,
Brad

I have personally caught two near ground fall whippers at Palomas, when well placed cams, placed by experienced trad climbers, pulled. Ironically, in one case, the climber was the same individual who pulled the bolts on the route (Floating World). He was just a few feet from the deck in an upside down fall and likely would not have survived. We both reconsidered the integrity of cams in Palomas limestone at that point. BTW, the climber who removed the bolts on this particular route had led it clean, with gear, *before* the bolts were placed.

That’s my main point, but I’ll ramble on for awhile longer. Climbers should get “worked up about a rock climb”. The rock is a limited resource, it is often in wild places, it deserves respect, and we are climbers. What the hell else are we going to get excited about? The majority of the public thinks we are fools, but we know better don’t we. For better or worse Turbo Trad was bolted. The time to lead it with gear and claim the FA would have been before the bolts were placed, but that is history. The bolt wars at Palomas were finished and done 10+ years ago, and if this continues we really are fools.

This topic is a Mud Falcon..... Miss you guys.....biatch.