TRAD CLIMBERS: so why do we call this style FA?

Mark Nelson wrote:Ice climbers are people too!

yeah...right...good one! :)

One thing I know for sure Mr Anderson will not be making a beeline to do even a second ascent of some of the on sight ground up Bateman routes in the Swell,even though the pro bolts where placed on lead with no hooks or hanging are now in place.If he does I would love to watch !! I still think on sight FA's lets say at least around 5.10 and upwards are only climbed by a very small percentage of people who call themselves rock climbers... just look in any guide book.However since the invention of cams I do agree about Indian Creek type climbing being more closer to sport than trad. Ice climbing due to the modern technical gear had to move out onto rock to make it less boring.....maybe kidding ?

Marc-Andre wrote: After hearing my posisition on stick clipping in sport, imagine how I feel about stick clipping/pre placed pro in trad... GAY!

What does stick clipping have to do with homosexuality (honest question)?

Lance, I don't think we're understanding each other here. All I'm saying, is that if you have a beef with somebody else's "style", use it as motivation to climb in better style yourself, but don't go online and criticize others.

For the record, I haven't climbed any ground up 5.14s, that's why I'm not starting threads bashing 5.14 trad climbing.

BLAKE CASH SAYS "You don't get it b/c you haven't ever bolted a route. Lots of routes are bolted with a high first bolt that is meant to stick clip...if that gets your panties in a wad, then fine by me, go ahead and climb these in whatever style you please..."

that's funny, i've bolted many new routes and always spend the extra 7 dollars to put in a first bolt to avoid this ethic... you know what they say about assumptions don't you mr cash?!...
;)
(btw, i specifically said i don't care and that's not what the post was about)

the real essence of the post is getting at many of our recent 5.14 FA's done on pre-placed gear, the REAL question is this, "what do we say when someone comes and leads the ENTIRE route on their own gear?" in MY opinion, this would be the FFA of said route and is where the kudos really belong, all the pre-cursors are just people ATTEMPTING the route... i say this because i have sometimes put in a pre-placement to PROJECT but don't personally give myself the send unless i place that piece on my own... additionally, i love the devils advocate comment on fixed gear, that truly is a per situation condition i think...maybe that'll help y'all get pointed in the right direction as far as this post is concerned... enjoying all the varied and interesting comments, thanks guys!

jon

p.s. y'all's alright down there in texas! LOL

I thought the style of leading a route with ANY preplaced gear was well established. If you climb a pitch with either a single piece of gear or 100 preplaced pieces of gear it's called a red point and is not as notable an achievement as leading the route on-sight placing gear as the leader progresses. Why does the term "Trad Ascent" have to be reestablished or another term given when there is already a defined style for this kind of ascent?

Preplaced gear has nothing to do with the FFA. IF the route is lead from the ground without falling, then you have an FFA.

What are we to do, have micro subdivisions of style?
FFAHPPPG (first free ascent, head point, preplaced gear)
FFA1PPPG (first free ascent, one preplaced piece of gear)

This would get ridiculous fast.

I have done routes before where I fell, lowered off a piece or two, pulled all the other gear on the way down and then did the first free ascent, would this be the FFAFLOAPOT,PATOGOTWDATDTFFA?

What about headpointing, does this really count, or did these people steal the real FFA?

It could go on forever, in the end if you climb it from bottom to top without falling on lead you're golden. Just be honest about everything else.

Jon O'Brien wrote:BLAKE CASH SAYS "You don't get it b/c you haven't ever bolted a route. Lots of routes are bolted with a high first bolt that is meant to stick clip...if that gets your panties in a wad, then fine by me, go ahead and climb these in whatever style you please..." that's funny, i've bolted many new routes and always spend the extra 7 dollars to put in a first bolt to avoid this ethic... you know what they say about assumptions don't you mr cash?!... ;) (btw, i specifically said i don't care and that's not what the post was about) the real essence of the post is getting at many of our recent 5.14 FA's done on pre-placed gear, the REAL question is this, "what do we say when someone comes and leads the ENTIRE route on their own gear?" in MY opinion, this would be the FFA of said route and is where the kudos really belong, all the pre-cursors are just people ATTEMPTING the route... i say this because i have sometimes put in a pre-placement to PROJECT but don't personally give myself the send unless i place that piece on my own... additionally, i love the devils advocate comment on fixed gear, that truly is a per situation condition i think...maybe that'll help y'all get pointed in the right direction as far as this post is concerned... enjoying all the varied and interesting comments, thanks guys! jon p.s. y'all's alright down there in texas! LOL

Then obviously you have never bolted a route with a hard boulder problem directly off the ground...where clipping isn't an option. High first bolts aren't a product of frugality, they're a product of safety.

I'm not assuming...you pretty much proved my point based on your answers.

...and 5.14 "SPrad" FA's with pre-placed gear are actually FA's...they will be eventually done placing the gear. It's just the first step in the evolution of said gear route. Many hard routes have been done with the gear pre-placed or with a crux piece pre-placed. Eventually someone ups the ante and places all the gear. It's just whatever style that makes that person happy, who cares? If they're psyched on how they did it, that's all you can ask for.

yak wrote: What does stick clipping have to do with homosexuality (honest question)?

oh come on, isn't it obvious? the stick clip clearly represents a penis. the quickdraw you clip is a piece of gear--as in, another man's gear? eh?? and when you clip it...are you beginning to see the connection here?

so if you use a stick clip regularly, you obviously enjoy the company of men... not that there's anything wrong with that!

blake: the post was about trad climbing, take care...

as with most things in life, if people would just worry about their own self and not what the 'rest of the community' is doing, it would probably be better. if somebody wants to lead a route while being top-rope belayed by another person, is it really kicking me in the nuts? are they using anti-perspirant on their hands and hanging extra long runners on some of the bolts? are they bringing trad gear on a sport route so they can reduce the runouts to 2 feet? stickclipping up to the 7th bolt on an 8 bolt route? as long as they don't leave chipped holds, trash, and a bunch of tick marks i could honestly care less.

as long as a person is honest about the method they used, and it doesn't alter the route, why get our panties in a wad?

Okay, there are two times I have stick clipped. On both routes it is specified that you 'start pre clipped' as both lines you can fall on your belayer and stuff. The routes are 'The Down System' and 'Pulse' on Chek, near Squamish. Both have bouldery moves right off the ground...

I don't really advocate stick clipping but on routes where it was made to be stick clipped it seems dumb that you would put your belayer at risk of you falling on them in the name of not stick clipping....

Any climbing where the goal is to climb at your highest leve, pushing numbers is sport climbing. Therefore headpointing is just sport climbing, trying to push grades and difficulty AND DANGER levels on hard sketch gear routes. I see peoople Headpointing safe routes all the time too, just straight up well pretocted gear route where thery TR, figure out the gear and so on. Taditional climbing to me is adventure, going up on a wall and going for it ground up and such....

Jon O'Brien wrote:stop telling me what i have and have not done blake: the post was about trad climbing, stay on topic or start your own post about bolting with someone that wants to go back and forth all day long about how hardcore your bolt-less boulder problem start routes are... you're the man dude, wow!

I'm on topic. If you don't want a response from me, stop responding to me. I never claimed "hardcore" status...I claimed safety. It's a style I prefer, that's why I'm trying to talk with you about it. The most important part of a route to safely bolt is the beginning. High first bolts are a really common thing in sport climbing areas....we're not breaking any new ground here with this discussion.

Jon, my personal belief is "who really has to put rules to it" Just climb. Ya know. Most people that make something of nothing are just chest pounding anyway. I think climbing scenes were a lot funner when you went and climbed against yourself instead of throwing out there that you did something. Now I guess to an extent Im guilty of this too, by posting at all. But as my rule goes. Climb and have fun. When you take it serious to the point that you only do it to have an image, you have lost the spirt of climbing.

durf

ppl,

why change the time-worn, standard-issue definition? I could understand the hashing out of certain ambiguities...but seriously, saying (or implying) something should change because somebody bagged a 5.14 with pro in place and therefore we should change what we call an FA (the every1's doing it excuse) damages us all.

and speaking of damaging us all, who cares that person y isn't lined up behind person x's FA's and therefore doesn't know wtf he's talking about? seriously? is that why you climb!? sad to say the least.

there's an equivalent mapping of that exercise...and the ruler's in the corner. keep that off the crag, por favor.

agreed blake...

all interesting comments from everyone, that's the first forum chat i've ever started and i enjoyed it! sorry for getting negative w/ you there blake: thought you were attacking me on an innocent question/ post... we'd probably be buds! thanks for all your input everyone!

happy climbing,

jon

For sure man! Some of my best friends loathe bolts...and I love the conversations we get into, it's super fun when it's in good taste.

No worries on the negativity front - it's easy to misinterpret a persons intentions in a forum format...I'm guilty of it myself.

cool read here. I like that we get to try to use the best style we can. When we can't we try to climb in the next best style. Hopefully, that doesn't mean altering the resource (ie, changing the rock as little as possible)

What a tangled mess those judgments entail.