Route organization - Mt Lemmon and environs

I have received a couple emails of late suggesting revisions to the way climbing areas in the Santa Catalina Mountains are organized. Currently, there is a Mt Lemmon heading under Arizona, and all Santa Catalina climbs are listed by area under Mt Lemmon.

However, it probably makes more sense to separate those areas that are not accessed via the Catalina Highway; Finger Rock, Esperero Spires, Leviathan, and Table Mt, etc.

One option would be to create a Santa Catalina Mts heading under Arizona, and then under Santa Catalina, have Mt Lemmon, Esperero, Finger Rock, Table Mountain, etc....

Or leave out the Santa Catalina area, and just list these all under Arizona...

I think the Santa Catalina Mountains heading makes the most sense, with everything subordinate to that. Otherwise, we get too many things under the Arizona heading and it gets cumbersome...

Thought I would put it to forum for a consensus.

James DeRoussel wrote: Thought I would put it to forum for a consensus.

James DeRoussel wrote:I think the Santa Catalina Mountains heading makes the most sense, with everything subordinate to that. Otherwise, we get too many things under the Arizona heading and it gets cumbersome... Thought I would put it to forum for a consensus.

I support the original idea and all subsequent ideas as well. My only concern would be that we would end up with too many levels of depth.

Perhaps this would work well:

Santa Catalina Mts
> Esperero Spires
> Table Mountain
> Sabino Canyon
> La Milagrosa Canyon
> Mt Lemmon - Lower Mountain
> Mt Lemmon - Windy Point
> Mt Lemmon - Upper Mountain
> Mt Lemmon - Bouldering

Interesting to ponder the organization.

Hendrixson wrote:I support the original idea and all subsequent ideas as well. My only concern would be that we would end up with too many levels of depth. Perhaps this would work well: Santa Catalina Mts > Esperero Spires > Table Mountain > Sabino Canyon > La Milagrosa Canyon > Mt Lemmon - Lower Mountain > Mt Lemmon - Windy Point > Mt Lemmon - Upper Mountain > Mt Lemmon - Bouldering Interesting to ponder the organization.

Ha ha. I didn't even know that Table Mountain was listed on mountain project! I think things could stand to be better organized. :) Agree with Greg and Hendrixson's ideas. Mt. Lemmon shouldn't be placed under anything, but should have subsections.

Might want to go with Mt. Lemmon/Catalina Mtns. as I agree with Greg that most folks think of Mt. Lemmon first (possibly my fault) not the Catalinas. As far as organizing it more:

Catalina Hwy.
Cat. Hwy Backcountry (1 hour approach or longer that are accessed from the road)
Miligrosa
Sabino Cyn.
Ventana Cyn.
Pima Cyn.
Finger Rock Cyn.
Pusch Ridge
Golder Dome

I am sure I am missing some. Or just do Mt. Lemmon/Catalina mountains and leave the rest alone and folks will find things the way they have all along.

Eric Rhicard wrote:just do Mt. Lemmon/Catalina mountains and leave the rest alone and folks will find things the way they have all along.

Greg wrote:I wouldn't put Lemmon under anything. It is one of the showcase names that people will be looking for when they access the main Arizona page.

I like this model:

Mt. Lemmon/Catalina Mountains
> Esperero Spires
> Table Mountain
> Sabino Canyon
> La Milagrosa Canyon
> Mt Lemmon - Lower Mountain
> Mt Lemmon - Windy Point
> Mt Lemmon - Upper Mountain
> Mt Lemmon - Bouldering

I don't think it is such a good idea to organize the database with categories such as Lower Mountain, Upper Mountain, etc.. It is too subjective. There are many problems with the structure now such as Finger Rock and Finger Rock/Pontatoc are found in two different places at two different levels of the database. This is very confusing and doesn't make sense.

I think the most logical way to organize the database is to have Catalina Mountains at the top and below it have the canyons (Ventana Cyn, Finger Rock Cyn, etc..) at the same level as Mt. Lemmon. Under Mt. Lemmon have the cliffs accessible off Mt. Lemmon highway. A note could be made in the Arizona intro page that Mt. Lemmon is in the Catalinas. A compromise could be two main categories, Mt. Lemmon Highway and Catalinas (minus Mt Lemmon Highway). It doesn't make much sense to organize by approach time because someone who doesn't have info on the cliffs will not know the approach times. Also, the organization of MP is geographic.

As a relatively new climber to the area, I've found that the most frustrating thing with the current organization is not knowing where on the mountain various named formations are located. I would not mind seeing an organization similar to what Eric said:

"Catalina Hwy.
Cat. Hwy Backcountry (1 hour approach or longer that are accessed from the road)
Miligrosa
Sabino Cyn.
Ventana Cyn.
Pima Cyn.
Finger Rock Cyn.
Pusch Ridge
Golder Dome"

with additional groupings under these as volume warrants, such as Upper Lemmon, Windy Point, Lower Lemmon under Catalina Hwy/Mt Lemmon. The guidebook is a much more understandable format than just throwing every crag under one huge heading, because it lets an inquisitive soul drill down to a part of the mountain with finer and finer granularity.

I also agree with the idea of keeping Lemmon on the main page, since it is a landmark name.

$0.02

Eric Rhicard wrote:Might want to go with Mt. Lemmon/Catalina Mtns. as I agree with Greg that most folks think of Mt. Lemmon first (possibly my fault) not the Catalinas. As far as organizing it more:...

Hey James another area that would be cool to have subcategories would be Cochise. The west side and east side.

Where would you put, for example, Cochise Dome (What's My Line), commonly approached from both east and west?

The main thing to do initially seems to be to separate the Hwy. access stuff from the other stuff. This will eliminate the problem I had trying to decide which of two places to put climbs from Pontatoc. Further dividing the Hwy. might make it a bit "cleaner" on the site, but might create more organization problems than anticipated. How 'bout this blend from all the above:

Arizona
-- Mt. Lemmon/Santa Catalina Mts.
----- Mt. Lemmon Hwy./Catalina Hwy.
----- Milagrosa Canyon
----- Sabino "
----- Esperero "
----- Ventana "
----- Pontatoc "
----- Finger Rock "
----- Pusch Ridge Area
----- Table Mt.
----- Alamo Canyon
----- Golder Dome

... simple, yet elegant.

JMayhew wrote:The main thing to do initially seems to be to separate the Hwy. access stuff from the other stuff. This will eliminate the problem I had trying to decide which of two places to put climbs from Pontatoc. Further dividing the Hwy. might make it a bit "cleaner" on the site, but might create more organization problems than anticipated. How 'bout this blend from all the above: Arizona -- Mt. Lemmon/Santa Catalina Mts. ----- Mt. Lemmon Hwy./Catalina Hwy. ----- Milagrosa Canyon ----- Sabino " ----- Esperero " ----- Ventana " ----- Pontatoc " ----- Finger Rock " ----- Pusch Ridge Area ----- Table Mt. ----- Alamo Canyon ----- Golder Dome ... simple, yet elegant.

JMayhew wrote: ... simple, yet elegant.

I was thinking basically everything that is commonly accessed by the highway. So all of those would be under the Hwy. If we want to split the hwy. up maybe divide it in half at a MP like the Gen. Hitchcock campground hairpin or San Pedro Vista that isn't really affected by approach choice?

Thanks everyone. Great input. Since this thread has been idle for 4 days, I will assume anyone with an opinion has spoken up ;)

I agree with Jeff's comment above that organization should be based largely on how climbs are accessed.

Therefore, I propose his suggestion of

Arizona
-- Mt. Lemmon/Santa Catalina Mts.
----- Mt. Lemmon Hwy./Catalina Hwy.
----- Milagrosa Canyon
----- Sabino "
----- Esperero "
----- Ventana "
----- Pontatoc "
----- Finger Rock "
----- Pusch Ridge Area
----- Table Mt.
----- Alamo Canyon
----- Golder Dome

I also think it makes sense to subdivide Mt. Lemmon Hwy. climbs to some degree. Consistency with Squeezing the Lemmon would be ideal, but Eric divides Lemmon into 8 categories (Lower Hwy, Bear Canyon, Windy Point East, Windy Point West, Windy Ridge, Mid Mountain, Reef of Rocks, Summit Crags). We can do that if the consensus agrees... or perhaps a happy medium would be 3 categories as suggested:

--Mt. Lemmon Hwy./Catalina Hwy.
-----Lower Mountain (below Windy Point)
-----Windy Point (or "Middle Mountain", though we get into lots of subjectivity there)
-----Upper Mountain (above Windy Point)

I think the above overall organization makes sense, but am open to further input on how to subdivide Mt Lemmon Highway.

The proposal looks good to me. We all seem to agree that the Catalina areas should be grouped together. Subdividing the Catalina Highway may require additional discussion.

I assume the MP backend supports reorganization of this sort, meaning people won't lose their comments, to-dos, ticks, etc.