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Avi Beacon Usage

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145
JML wrote:While I don't use an avi beacon I did recently start using a SPOT messenger. Thing is cool. ...
It can be. It's a different sort of tool. Just don't use it like an avy beacon. & still no substitute for things already mentioned
Hobsont · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 15

That would be reading that totally different than I did and would make more sense. Anyone have specific locations of when and where they would take their avi equipment and when and where they would not? Just trying to put more real life applications to these personal prefrences.

J.B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 150
Andy Librande wrote: There is some great information on the Colorado Avalanche Information Centers's website avalanche.state.co.us/acc/a… as well as avalanche.org/index.php Let the Statistics do some of the talking for you. While climber/hiker deaths have been relatively low since 1997, they do account for a good chunk of the deaths. The last few years have been light compared to total deaths. Since 2005, 7 climber deaths and 6 hiker deaths have occurred. Total deaths were at 195, so approx 7% of fatalities were from climbing/hiking activities. I do a lot of backcountry snowboarding so for me not having a beacon, probe, shovel, training seems crazy if you are in any type of avy terrain. However at the end of the day, I guess the situation and people decide the equipment.
The graphs have me insanely confused...how are those two so different in the same years, for example in 2004, how are there more snowmobiler deaths that bc skier deaths and the opposite on the other graph?
Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
John McNamee wrote:A really interesting exercise in both micro route selection and team dynamics is the ski the same run twice. Once with a pack, avalung, beacon, probe and shovel and then do it again without any of the "safety gear" and see what happens. Then go and select another run and this time ski it first without the safety gear and then with it. A helicopter helps! You may be surprised with the results.
Fantastic!

Great stuff there, John.

Just back from a quick tour...breakable crust over mush, surface sluffs, pinwheels...nothing like being on the back end of a 47" dump at the end of the first hot day...(heavy sigh)...
jyount · · jackson, wy · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 85

Education and avoidance work but avalanches can be unpredictable. Every avalanche pro I know has had a close call. Think about some of the recent inbounds avalanche fatalities, slopes that have been hammered by explosives and skiers only to slide a few hours later. If your skiing or climbing in avalanche terrain stack the odds in your favor.

Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493

Long term graph year 2008 approximate values:
Inbounds: 45
Snowshoe: 35
Backcountry: 245
Climber: 180
Snowboarder: 50
Snowmobiler: 190

Short term graph 2008 values:
Inbounds: 4
Snowshoe: 12
Backcountry: 80
Climber: 30
Snowboarder: not listed
Snowmobiler: 130

Anyone understand the discrepancies?

Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493

Never mind. I understand that it's cumulative from the beginning of the graph

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145
jyount wrote:Education and avoidance work but avalanches can be unpredictable. Every avalanche pro I know has had a close call. Think about some of the recent inbounds avalanche fatalities, slopes that have been hammered by explosives and skiers only to slide a few hours later. If your skiing or climbing in avalanche terrain stack the odds in your favor.
Actually to the contrary, in terrain as described within the quoted text, avalanches are predictable and should no longer categorized as freak accidents. It's more that the pros aren't accurately reading the signs or they aren't assessing the prone areas; explosives are just a method of discharging local energy at one point in time. As one example -- characteristics of snow can change to be more conducive to slide in variable climate, so while the discharges didn't set anything off yesterday or the day before yesterday, does not mean that this afternoon, when a period of gradient increase affects the snowpack, the same slope is still stable.
Hobsont · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 15

From these last few posts I am hearing a lot of good reason as to why you would want to always carry avi gear, as well as always be practicing good route finding and multiple condition assessments along the way. Everything is always changing so to say the overall conditions are safe or that because you are traveling a ridge etc. so you won't need gear seems like putting a lot of pressure on an assessment that could change 10 feet away. As many of us know already a snow pit is not a very accurate tool to judge anything by, it is good to confirm what you already know but the conditions in your pit could be totally different a few feet away or at just the slightest angle change.

J.B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 150
Brian Abram wrote:Never mind. I understand that it's cumulative from the beginning of the graph
Oh!, Thanks!
Hobsont · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 15

I linked this discussion to my outdoor blog @ HighAltitudeAdventures.com Hopping to hear back from Chris Davenport and Eli Helmtuh @ClimbingLife for some more proffesional input.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

It's the interesting things in life that keep us young, after all.

Chris Plesko · · Westminster, CO · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 485

Do I have Kevlar on my face?

perropirana Santibanez · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2008 · Points: 25
Hobsont wrote:I was talking to a few people last night who do winter mountaineering and they shocked me by saying that they do not use Avi Beacons. Is the non use of beacons a common practice in the Mountaineering world? I am certainly new to winter Mountaineering but would think it to a really poor choice to do any backcountry travel without a beacon and the knowledge of how to use one? What are some of the more experienced winter users opinions?
Not for mountaineering, maybe in CO (which I don't consider mountaineering). I have been climbing for about 20 years and I have never used one unless I am backcountry skiing. Most avalanches on big peaks are deadly with or without.
Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280

I still favor the trusty 'Avi-poodle', as created by Tami Knight.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

Here are some interesting updated items analyzed & discussed over the past weekend -- the avy beacon, even with buddy rescue is only showing 40-50% effective in helping to prevent mortality. Also, with both U.S. & Europe reporting independently, asphyxiation is accounting for 75%, trauma 20+%, and a small percent hypothermia in mortality (same percentages for both continents). I would argue you could flip those percentages in Colorado and say a majority is trauma due to our terrain.

You would think differently on education & technology development in beacons over the course of the past 5-10 years. The problems are related to buddy rescue: not only locate, but fine search, probing, & effective digging. What this says is basically partners may have beacons but the buddy rescue skills in total are not being applied, beacons worn improperly; and the snow & route travel/planning are not being assessed properly, either.

Also making strides are professional rescue over buddy rescue -- avy deployment teams by heli are proving effective, especially when partners separate, calling dispatch or hitting the PLB is critical.

The Avalung is holding up to testing with managing ETCO2 (a method of measuring carbon dioxide content -- see Capnography) to survivable levels to a 90 minutes test duration. Actual burials have been longer & survived. Without the Avalung, results showing ETCO2 terminates testing within a few minutes; meaning people aren't just freaking out when they get buried, the physiological evidence is there.

Now the Avalung report itself was 2007, but the stats on mortality and beacon usage were updated either through the last season or season prior.

(Colin Grissom, MD & Dale Atkins, in report & discussion)

Best advice remains the same, know how not to get caught in an avy and actually using that knowledge.

Jim Amidon · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 850

It's usually the people with the most skill and education that wind up under the snow pile.........

Andy Librande · · Denver, CO · Joined Nov 2005 · Points: 1,880
Mark Nelson wrote:Here are some interesting updated items analyzed & discussed over the past weekend -- the avy beacon, even with buddy rescue is only showing 40-50% effective in helping to prevent mortality. Also, with both U.S. & Europe reporting independently, asphyxiation is accounting for 75%, trauma 20+%, and a small percent hypothermia in mortality (same percentages for both continents).
Hey Mark - Interesting data, do you have any links or research documents that you are referring to?
Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

Google this study:

Avalanche Victim Physiology and Medical Treatment After Rescue

The other stuff, I'll probably have to get from Dale (which is where those other tables already posted earlier on this topic were developed as well). These guys also discussed the back-country user, and really if you took non-motorized vs motorized, it'd be pretty close to similar for mortality if you just compared the two user groups.

JPVallone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 195
Scott McMahon wrote: Going faster through avy terrain without the gear adding weight?
Definitely the the best way, I can outrun or ski avalanches, I saw it in the movies, Especially if my 6 ounce beacon is not weighing me down. LOL?

This question has a no brainer answer to me, Avi gear is not that heavy. And if your not skiing your probably not moving fast anyway, but just because you can move fast is no reason to not bring the proper equipment. You live in Colorado, which could arguably be described as one of the worst snowpacks in the world. Doesn't matter the activity, if you are in avalanche terrain be prepared, make good decisions, and stack the odds in your favor.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Mountaineering
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