Avi Beacon Usage

I was talking to a few people last night who do winter mountaineering and they shocked me by saying that they do not use Avi Beacons. Is the non use of beacons a common practice in the Mountaineering world? I am certainly new to winter Mountaineering but would think it to a really poor choice to do any backcountry travel without a beacon and the knowledge of how to use one? What are some of the more experienced winter users opinions?

I think it would depend on where you are going..is it avy prone?

But more importantly what good will a beacon do in that situation? In the backcountry one rider drops in while the other waits. In a mountain situation you are typically both in the slide path. So a beacon will only be effective if the slide only affects one aspect or climber.

You can wear it for body recovery though.

One way to approach this is to think of beacon use as a belay partnership. In which you'd need a good partner, with knowledge & experience in terrain, pre-outing reporting & beacon checks, analysis snow energy potential, group snow travel skills, & buddy rescue skills including having proper equipment and practice in buddy locate and rescue.

The mindset from your other discussion may not come from those who have successfully assessed risk in avy terrain. They may have lived with the 95 rule of ignorance, or been educated just enough to make themselves more dangerous, or simply have gone into any reward without regard -- "today we climb or die, the mountain will decide"; and those will continue to accept risk without being able to assess it; or the route itself just cannot be assessed due to its technical nature; or the route just isn't conducive to any risk (probably the best choice in respect). So, indeed it might seem pointless to look into beacon use.

Beacons certainly aren't the elixir. But they are a good tool in certain terrain conditions and good partnerships; maybe not so much for technical route commitment and/or high probability of trauma; but there is a chance not every incident is a death outcome. And, they still might be helpful for the avy deployment SAR teams if large distance of partner separation occurs; the heli team may be in best position to make the locate and unbury someone.

A good question to ask: Turn your beacon off; would you still travel in certain terrain conditions?

Hobsont wrote:I was talking to a few people last night who do winter mountaineering and they shocked me by saying that they do not use Avi Beacons. Is the non use of beacons a common practice in the Mountaineering world?

Pretty interesting, and, I've contemplated the same.

Yeah, not common.

I wear a beacon as part of the backcountry ski uniform, not so much to really "save" me, but, its just part of the gear I take for recreating in the snow.

I personally think, and the view is shared by a number of professional avy folks, that beacons actually give a false sense of security and probably contribute to more deaths than they save. I mean really, would you ski without one? I would (and do every once in a while). I don't "need" a beacon unless I've lost the game. And, I try to make sure I don't put myself in that situation. So, its a mindset. Its this mindset that maybe carries over into mountaineering.

For mountaineering type stuff, I'm not really recreating in the snow, per se. Sure, might be in avy terrain, but, if I think the hazard might be iffy, then, I'd choose to not go up, beacon or not. Having a beacon or not isn't really part of my decision process. Beacons don't prevent bad decisions, and, maybe contribute to them (!).

Also, in steep, especially roped or 3rd class type terrain in the mountains, a beacon really doesn't prevent an avalanche accident. Its just dead weight (sorry for the pun).

I guess my thought is, if you think you "need" a beacon for snowy mountaineering gigs, then, maybe what you really need is a better knowledge of avy terrain and ability to access conditions. A beacon is a piece of extra gear and only useful for when you've lost the avy game and then my bet is usually only for finding a corpse.

Another point, is, a beacon really isn't much good unless you're also carrying a shovel. Most climbers for mountaineering type adventures are trying to go light and fast to a point, and, you can't bring everything along. For some climbs, where a bivy is planned or at least anticipated, then a shovel will be in the kit (or at least some gear to facilitate digging a snow cave or bivy sight). But, corners are usually cut to save weight and space.

Its pretty interesting, but, yeah, for backcountry mountain/rock/ice climbs I rarely wear a beacon unless skiing is also part of the gig. Worth discussing for sure. A few partners and I kick this around from time to time...

Anyhoo, a few thoughts...

I think these are all good points and input. Obviously in Mountaineering situations you are traveling in a much closer team, and possibly up the same dangerous terrain at once. I have done AIARE avi certification classes and understand traveling in backcountry terrain fairly well mainly through the aspect of backcountry skiing and snowboarding where I would not go out without a beacon on. But regardless I think that through having a better understanding of avi terrain and what aspects are stable and what is not, what paths of travel are less prone to slide, and when and how to travel you should be more willing to use a beacon. Say on the approach to a big climb you are having to go through a large avi terrain maybe through terrain traps, where there are overhanging cornices or anything like that you would still not want to carry a beacon and stager your teams travel from safe pocket to safe pocket? Also I agree that a beacon could create a false sense of safety if you do not know how to use it or all of the other important aspects of backcountry travel, but if you know these things it is just another useful tool. Carrying a beacon and not knowing how to use it would be like placing a cam or screw and not knowing what you are doing, but when you know proper placement you are that much more prepared.

I hope I don't sound like I'm being a know it all or my opinion is set. I'm just trying to add more thought on my part to this because I am very curios.

A beacon/probe/shovel can certainly save lives. Some people forget that carrying them doesn't give license to travel in more dangerous places. Even when carrying a beacon/probe/shovel I think it is prudent to make route decisions as if you are not carrying one. Many deaths occur just by the trauma of an avalanche.

Even if you are on a rope team and an avalanche hits, there is a chance someone doesn't get buried, or there may be other rope teams nearby who can assist. There are a number of things that can be done to mitigate avalanche risk like watching the forecasts/snow history, good route finding (minimize avy terrain following ridge lines), digging snow pits, and taking avy classes for increased awareness. Still, it's not difficult for a winter mountaineer to get into a precarious situation and a beacon/probe/shovel can be the difference between life and death.

Even if you have a beacon/probe/shovel, doesn't do much good if your partner(s) don't have them. Seems like a lot of backpackers/hikers-turned-winter mountaineers might skip the beacon/probe/shovel gear until they are convinced the sport is for them. I actually have a spare beacon/probe/shovel for such cases. After all, it's the other person that I want to have the gear and know how to use it if I get buried. =)

(Listed beacon/probe/shovel for emphasis as one isn't much good without all three.)

i carry my avy gear when in situations where it might save my life or the life of my partner. for instance, on the approach to any route when the approach passes through avy prone terrain.

but, i wouldn't when in situations where it's nothing more than added weight. for instance, climbing in a VERY narrow couliour...the outcome of an avalanche in that situation is dreadfully predictable. so, my thought is go light, go fast and get the hell outta there as soon as you can.

No question, beacons have killed more people than they have saved. Even "educated and experienced" users are lulled into thinking they can make that turn or climb that slope because they have B/P/S. Statistically, the odds of getting caught go up after taking an avy class but that's not a valid argument against learning. The main reason to wear a beacon is to make body recovery easier for the rescue team....probing big debris fields is a lot of work.

What's worse in avy terrain?

Going slower due to all the avy gear you have through poor terrain,

OR

Going faster through avy terrain without the gear adding weight?

There is some great information on the Colorado Avalanche Information Centers's website avalanche.state.co.us/acc/a…

as well as avalanche.org/index.php

Let the Statistics do some of the talking for you. While climber/hiker deaths have been relatively low since 1997, they do account for a good chunk of the deaths.

The last few years have been light compared to total deaths. Since 2005, 7 climber deaths and 6 hiker deaths have occurred. Total deaths were at 195, so approx 7% of fatalities were from climbing/hiking activities.

I do a lot of backcountry snowboarding so for me not having a beacon, probe, shovel, training seems crazy if you are in any type of avy terrain.

However at the end of the day, I guess the situation and people decide the equipment.

If someone took the fastest snowmachine on the planet out into avy terrain, why then did they end up getting caught?

Clyde wrote:No question, beacons have killed more people than they have saved. Even "educated and experienced" users are lulled into thinking they can make that turn or climb that slope because they have B/P/S. Statistically, the odds of getting caught go up after taking an avy class but that's not a valid argument against learning. The main reason to wear a beacon is to make body recovery easier for the rescue team....probing big debris fields is a lot of work.

that's bad statistical analysis...kinda like saying driver's licenses have killed more people than they have saved because most people killed in an auto accident have one.

i have no doubt that more people who've taken an avy class head into avy terrain and, as a result, are more likely to end up in an avalanche. but, how many people have avoided avalanches because of their training? and, how many people avoid avalanche terrain because they don't have the training or equipment?

the answer to that last one is "Not enough!" but you know where I'm coming from...

Mark Nelson wrote:If someone took the fastest snowmachine on the planet out into avy terrain, why then did they end up getting caught?

that someone was chuck norris and he wasn't trying to avoid the avalanche, he was chasing it down.

Folks can make a bunch of different conclusions based on stat's.

For me, since my recreation area is fairly small in the winter, I pay very close attention to all the avalanches specifically, not the stat's in general.

So, I go here:

utahavalanchecenter.org/acc…

There was a pretty amazing rescue earlier this year when a snowboarder got caught, buried, and was rescued in a beacon search. But, hate to say, that's pretty rare. Most folks seem to be killed and injured by trauma. And, folks that are rescued aren't completely buried. Beacons really don't play as much as folks think.

Heaven forbid if you think you "need" avy probes. Talk about a last resort. But, they work in rare cases. Mostly for body retrieval though.

Doesn't really take long to scroll through every accident. As the season progresses, I review each one very closely. This season, a super bad snowpack here, I've known a bunch of saavy folks that had close calls (some hurt) in avalanches. All with their level 1 or 2 or whatever, all with beacons and shovels, all with 20+ years of experience. The excuse? They made mistakes. Why? Group think? Having the "right equipment"? Probably all contributors.

Always makes me cringe when I hear the media or "backcountry" folks who say, "make sure you have your beacon if you go into avalanche terrain". Its really the last thing you "need". You've lost if you need a beacon. And, if you wouldn't ski or climb without one, maybe you shouldn't ski or climb.

This beacon technology just can't be a substitute for the knowledge of what it takes to avoid an avalanche. Its foolish to think so, IMHO.

I think there are really good points being made on both sides of this issue. But as I read through these everything comes back to the human factor; where you travel, when you travel, how you travel, preparation etc. And yes most of the avi deaths are people who do have beacons and knowledge but that is because they also make up the highest number of users; how many of these practice good technique, and where are the stats for lives saved? But also lots of these accidents are from the people with this knowledge who decided they didn't need it that day, or they know the area so it is okay. Also are we talking hiking an area to a popular waterfall crag through flat ground or are people taking of traveling long distances through variable terrain. For example I wouldn't think of bringing avi gear to Hidden Falls in RMNP but when I'm going out in March for Capital peak in the Elks I'd probably want it, added weight and all of approx 2 lbs.

JLP wrote:Climbers can generally avoid avy slopes through routefinding - ie, ridges and good margin from runouts. If it's really avy prone, the climbing conditions probably suck too, and you just don't even go there. Beacons are generally carried only by clueless noob climbers. BC skiing is different. They want the avy prone slopes as this is where the skiing is best. However, in CO, you really don't want those either, beacon or not.

off the top of my head, i can name four very strong climbers who were lost to avalanches this year. the question was about winter mountaineering, not trad climbing in an alpine setting.

JLP wrote: Since they're dead, I'll go ahead and assume they either weren't wearing one, or that it didn't help. Also, "very strong" does not equal "didn't f' up" nor "wasn't gambling".

my point was that, in the context of the OP's question, avalanche danger is not something that can simply be avoided by good route finding. nor does high avy danger equate to climbing conditions that suck.

If you're going to get hit with an avalanche, most people would want to be wearing a beacon.

However, wearing a beacon or not wearing one is not what decides whether you will get you caught in an avalanche.

So why not wear a beacon?

1 - Someone might call you a noob.
2 - Too much extra weight (beacon/probe/shovel).
3 - Too expensive (noob or not).
3 - Low risk day ("safe" route and "safe" conditions are "planned" for).
4 - If risk is too high, conditions might suck too, so stay home.
5 - ...

Why wear a beacon?

1 - Improve chances of survival in case of being caught.
2 - Rescue others
3 - Easier body recovery
3 - Gear junkies love shiny new stuff.
4 - ...

Beacons have their place I think. Some interesting things are coming out in this discussion.

A really interesting exercise in both micro route selection and team dynamics is the ski the same run twice. Once with a pack, avalung, beacon, probe and shovel and then do it again without any of the "safety gear" and see what happens.

Then go and select another run and this time ski it first without the safety gear and then with it. A helicopter helps!

You may be surprised with the results.

John McNamee wrote:A really interesting exercise in both micro route selection and team dynamics is the ski the same run twice. Once with a pack, avalung, beacon, probe and shovel and then do it again without any of the "safety gear" and see what happens. Then go and select another run and this time ski it first without the safety gear and then with it. A helicopter helps! You may be surprised with the results.

Replying to this in terms of Backcountry ski/snowboard awareness this is something I would advise against. Just because you skied a slope once does not mean that it is safe. In many incidents reports you will see that a person ski's a slope just fine then there partner skis it second and it slide. This is just a matter of what the trigger will be so just because you or your buddy or anyone else has skid that slope does not mean it is safe.

This is all really good input and views on the Mountaineering world though, which is still pretty foreign to me.

While I don't use an avi beacon I did recently start using a SPOT messenger. Thing is cool. Sends a text/email to anybody you have entered on your account and lets them know you are fine and gives your coordinates with a link to click on for Google maps/earth so your friends can see exactly where you are. It also has buttons for "Help non-mergency" and for "911".