FA system for sport routes needs to change

I agree in principal with the proposal for sport routes. Recognition of the vision and the effort are appropriate and worthy, in addition to recognition of the skill (or happenstance) to do the FA. For trad routes the situation is different, especially for a ground up ethic in which other factors are involved - but let’s not go there. A few thoughts for the sport route proposal:

There is an underlying theme that needs to be addressed about the importance of the development and FA. The ego factor often overwhelms the stated good intentions of doing new routes, and there is an overly high emphasis to getting one’s name into a guide book. In reading between the lines, not just for this thread but in the wider climbing world, there is a feeling among some climbers that you are nobody unless you develop/FA routes and that putting up routes is the ultimate climbing goal. Let’s recognize contributions and achievements and record history, but try not to idolize.

As for the suggestion to let the developer name the route and the FAer give it a rating:

• Isn’t it poor style to name a route before it is completed and climbed free? I’ve always thought that names should come naturally along with the route itself, and that it is disrespectful to the rock or perhaps bad luck to prematurely attach a name.
• As for the rating. Sure the FAer can have first shot at attaching a rating. We should understand though that the route itself presents a certain difficulty to climbers, and each of us gropes at a number to define that difficulty. Ultimately the rating is a consensus of many climbers not something defined by one person.

I just wonder how one can try to change how the community approaches EB / FA. I know that too many climbers are self absorbed and want to see there name next to "FA" in a guide book.

The only way I see a major change in this approach is if all the guide book authors adopt this idea.

Red wrote:I just wonder how one can try to change how the community approaches EB / FA. I know that too many climbers are self absorbed and want to see there name next to "FA" in a guide book. The only way I see a major change in this approach is if all the guide book authors adopt this idea.

when i started this thread i realized we had about a snowball's chance in hell of actually changing anything (but i knew that because of the low odds i had a fairly good chance of using the phrase "a snowball's chance in hell", so that made me happy). however, here's how we could, theoretically, change things:

for sport and TR routes (or hell maybe all types of routes), MP.com could list an optional field "EB" for the establishers, which would appear above the FA field if filled in when submitting a new route. if left empty, the field would not appear in the route description, so if someone didn't want to list the establishers for any reason then they wouldn't have to.

as for the guide books, well that's trickier, but doable. we could simply ask the guidebook authors we know personally to start doing this for new routes. i don't have the lemmon guidebook handy but i'm fairly certain each route doesn't have "FA" next to it; just the names of the FA team in parentheses, so the lemmon guidebook is already set up for this. guidebook authors typically contact the FA team for information about the new routes, so you just tell them whatever names you want.

long story short, this would be a long slow process that involves changing the way people do things that they have done for years or even decades. however, if it starts to catch on i think it will gain momentum as people realize the benefits. there's no more redtagging (well there could be, but as time went on people would realize that there was no need for it), no more hiding new areas from people because you haven't sent every single route there yet, even the multi-year 5.13 you could maybe conceive of doing if you train hard and don't eat any chocolate chip cookies over christmas.

you can start posting things immediately and get the word out about the awesome routes you've been developing and not have to worry about someone "stealing" your FA. no one gets resentful about red tags because there are no red tags. everyone's happy.

at least, in a perfect world this is what would happen. so, like i said, we have about a snowball's chance in hell. but it's worth a shot.

Healthcare debate, gun rights, redpoint BS . . .

It's not up to the massive community as a whole. The climbers and developers (citizens) in local areas(the states) can do what they want and don't need to be legislated upon by a fat group of webocrats(buerocrats) sitting on their asses in Colorado (Washington).

I don't understand everyone's need to create an overbearing system. Back off, and I'll do what I want in my own crag. If you come to visit, I'd invite you to check out the local ethics.

MP.com is in no way the authority on climbing.

+1

Price,

Seriously. Theres obviously no way that we can make an overarching rule or law about climbing. Climbing is inherently personal and governed only by the morals of those climbing. Sometimes things happen that get the community discussing. You get so worked up over these things, like what people discuss on MP is the end of the world. You're more than welcome to just ignore what people think and do what you want at your own crag. If it starts being harmful to the community because of access or really crappy ethics, yeah you'll get called out on it, but most likely no one will ever give a crap what you do. It doesn't mean that people are going to stop discussing their opinions on MP.

You need to calm down and chill out. If you don't like the discussions, don't read them. You have every right to comment, but its obvious all you like to do lately is complain. We're not infringing on your right to have fun, so work your issues out elsewhere. Spend less time whining about climbing discussions and climb, or something.

MP.com is no way the authority on climbing. No one is. Its all personal morals and ethics. I don't think theres much confusion about that.

Price wrote:Healthcare debate, gun rights, redpoint BS . . . It's not up to the massive community as a whole. The climbers and developers (citizens) in local areas(the states) can do what they want and don't need to be legislated upon by a fat group of webocrats(buerocrats) sitting on their asses in Colorado (Washington). I don't understand everyone's need to create an overbearing system. Back off, and I'll do what I want in my own crag. If you come to visit, I'd invite you to check out the local ethics. MP.com is in no way the authority on climbing.

no one is saying it is. relax.

Jon Ruland wrote: no one is saying it is. relax.

Look at the title of your thread much?

Price wrote: Look at the title of your thread much?

yes, and there's nothing in the title that says MP is the authority on climbing laws or that we will come in with a posse and tell you how ethics should be at your local crag.

clearly you haven't been reading the actual thread because if you did you'd see that the idea is to convince people to do something in a new way because it's better for everyone, not force people to do it this way just because the internet people said so. this is simply a discussion that is meant to exchange ideas and bring about changes if people are willing to do so.

if you would like to discuss the pros and cons of this idea then by all means post something relevant, otherwise take your straw man argument somewhere else.

"FA System"
We don't need no stinkin' system.

so let me get this straight. you guys don't care that we have a counterproductive ethic right now that encourages people to keep their routes a secret from the rest of the climbing community?

also, spencer, since you don't care about "credit", how many sport routes have you personally bolted and cleaned? if you have put up a fair number of routes, then i respect your statement about "credit". if you have never put up a sport route, then maybe you should spend several weeks bolting and cleaning and spending money on a single project (and all the while doing very little actual climbing because you're working on your route) before telling people they shouldn't care about "credit".

i won't buy this BS that most people who bolt sport routes don't--or shouldn't--care about credit. if they don't care about credit then why do they redtag routes they haven't sent? why do the vast majority of people putting up routes keep their areas a secret until they have sent every route? it sure isn't for safety reasons.