Adding bolts to existing routes

I'm going out for big adventure with a few buddies here next week. Can't wait. The mission is to put some shine on an old turd. Long story short, I'm going to do the second ascent of a route I put up and I am going to add bolts--thus polishing the turd.

So, my question to the peanut gallery:

Is it "ethical" to add bolts to an existing route even if done by the first ascensionist? Just so you know, I'm going to do it anyway...

I am fascinated by those who make it their pass-time to make rules for climbing. Am I going to break your rules?

I guess it is not fair to describe said turd to some degree.

Said Turd:

A desert alpine horror show that will not likely see a third ascent in the next 10 years.

Many pitches of R 5.9

A wee bit of very hard aid

Loads of choss

In a general area less traveled than even Cedar Canyon, UT.

Nate Brown wrote: ... A desert alpine horror show that will not likely see a third in the next 10 years ... Loads of choss ...

No one cares. Troll on RC.com

i would say that you're a huge fu*%ing wimp.

just kidding. i think that if you're going to bother "establishing" a route (that is, put up a line that you think should, or might, be repeated) you should do just that - establish it; clean where necessary & practical, bolt where necessary & practical.

if someone else retro-bolts a route, well, i think that's sort of an infringement on the FAist's intent/vision/whatever. if it's a reasonable retro-bolt (an arbitrary term, i know), like, say, adding 4 bolts to an otherwise X-rated, super-nice 5.7 slab climb, than i'm not really offended. adding, say, 14 bolts to that same slab line would offend me, whether or not i put up the route.

and, for what it's worth, i don't see myself as making rules here, just having opinions. i find myself thinking about climbing occasionally - in this case, my 5.7 slab climb example is from a nearby crag that i solo with some regularity and have some attachment to, so those were thoughts i had on my trail-run back to the car.

Nate Brown wrote: A desert alpine horror show

Man, after that I'd take a tropical polar vacation trudge

It's your route, do as you choose.

Me, I would not bother unless I thought it would get more people to do it. If it is not going to increase traffic on the route from nothing to at least a repeat or two a year I would not waste the energy and go climb something else.

If you've already done it without bolts, and can't imagine another ascent for 10 years... why bother putting the bolts there on your 2nd ascent? That sounds like a ton of work that's not necessary.

Nate Brown wrote:--thus polishing the turd. So, my question to the peanut gallery: Is it "ethical" to add bolts to an existing route even if done by the first ascensionist?

If it's a turd, why climb it again? Just flush it...

Why would you add bolts to your route? Climb it as is, you did it once right?

It is obviously not a 3 star classic, rather a choss masterpiece that may see 3 ascents in 30 years.

I like repeating choss routes, I would hate to head out for a 2nd ascent, then notice it got retro bolted.

Why not just post up your route and let someone give it a go.

Oh wait your gonna do it anyway.

Be sure to give us the original topo, that way whoever goes to repeat it can chop the new steel :)

I think that you are more fond of it than you think you are. In either case, go finish it the way you think it should be finished. I bet you in a few years it has more ascents than you ever imagined it to have. Have fun, and thanks for thinking about someone besides yourself.

If you are going to do it anyway and you have already passed judgement on climbers who are willing to debate ethics why do you even bother to post and ask? Do you need some attention that you aren't getting in some other way?

And it isn't an adventure if you already know the final outcome. If your idea of an adventure is to add bolts to an already established route then you are pathetic. You should stop climbing now before it is too late for the rest of us and take up gardening instead.

Basically no one cares about you or your route. Why do you even bother to post?

Uh, WHAT?

Jack Roberts,

Luckily, you responded the way you did to this question. It made me feel much better after reading your post. There for awhile; I felt like I was the biggest ass on this website, but once again I have been outdone!

Nate,

If you want real adventure and choss, go try an ascent of Steamboat Rock in Dinosaur National Park. I think it's been done twice by two different routes but still remains one sick piece of rock. I believe it is at the confluence of the Green and Colorado rivers and is about 450ft. Then you will have a route that won't get repeated for quite awhile. Have fun!

Jack,

You said:

"And it isn't an adventure if you already know the final outcome. If your idea of an adventure is to add bolts to an already established route then you are pathetic. You should stop climbing now before it is too late for the rest of us and take up gardening instead."

Too late? I took up gardening years ago, on a few levels. Growing edible tomatos outdoors in Jackson took years of zen learning. As for being pathetic, thanks. Would you call Jeff Lowe pathetic for Wind Sand Stars, or a visionary? He is my hero. I would be offended and confused if you called him pathetic.

I guess I cam off as terse. Sorry for that. Thanks for your rules!

Nate

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Nate, I can only guess where this is. Its was your Vision. You are just improving your own route. Bolt the damn thing. Don't listen to these "gurus" that have said ethics. Your mistake for asking the general. I would ask yourself what would Layton Kor do, Or Jeff Lowe. Then go do it.

" I would ask yourself what would Layton Kor do, Or Jeff Lowe"

They Definitely would not be repeating their route to ADD bolts!

At least the next time you climb it you will have more pro on all of that 5.9R.

Wind Sand and Stars. I think Jeff repeated that as a free climb? Not sure about the added bolt history, but, my bet is he went back and added bolts.

You go Nate!

If rockfall rakes the valley before dawn and there are no alpine climbers trudging in to hear it, does it make a sound?

Jim Gloeckler wrote:Steamboat Rock in Dinosaur National Park... I believe it is at the confluence of the Green and Colorado rivers and is about 450ft.

Isn't the confluence of these rivers in Canyonlands NP? ...and I don't remember seeing any 450' towers there....

mucci wrote:" They Definitely would not be repeating their route to ADD bolts!

I've had this conversation with Jeff a few times, and I'm not going to speak for him other than to say, you assume too much. I know of at least two cases where Jeff did exactly this in Zion (the aforementioned Wind, Sand, and Stars, and Moonlight Buttress), and it wouldn't surprise me if there were other places where he had done the same thing.