Firearms

I own a gun and don't advocate any form of gun control. But you still have to be rational about the consequences.

Anecdotes don't equal logic. Yes, it is perfectly possible you will be that dude that saves the day when intruders break in.

But the odds are (about 22 to 1) that instead one of the following will happen:
a) you will get depressed and shoot yourself
b) you will accidentally shoot yourself
c) you will get angry/drunk/stupid and shoot your spouse, roommate, girlfriend, etc.
d) you will accidentally shoot your spouse, roommate, girlfriend, etc.
e) your child will find your gun and kill themselves or some other innocent person.
d) some other bad outcome

This is just a statistical fact. Those of us with a gun must
a) be ignorant of the numbers, or
b) believe we are smart enough to avoid being in the group of 22 (sad/dead people) and instead end up in the group of 1 (hero).

Wehling wrote:When you see a police officer, do you fear he will shoot up the gas station?

no, but maybe a donut-shop.. ~(: {{kidding}}

Wehling wrote: So why do we think that somebody without a badge is automatically a criminal and a lunatic without a sound mind? That's the question I want an answer to, but until then...

I don't personally think this but I wonder why there is not some sort of safety or procedural testing (or even a base emotional or mental aptitude test) on the general usage of firearms. Driving = yes, Scuba Diving = yes, Firearms = no

I'm not trying to propose rewriting the Second Amendment here, just tossing in my question for possible debate

richard magill wrote:I own a gun and don't advocate any form of gun control. But you still have to be rational about the consequences. Anecdotes don't equal logic. Yes, it is perfectly possible you will be that dude that saves the day when intruders break in. But the odds are (about 22 to 1) that instead one of the following will happen: a) you will get depressed and shoot yourself b) you will accidentally shoot yourself c) you will get angry/drunk/stupid and shoot your spouse, roommate, girlfriend, etc. d) you will accidentally shoot your spouse, roommate, girlfriend, etc. e) your child will find your gun and kill themselves or some other innocent person. d) some other bad outcome This is just a statistical fact. Those of us with a gun must a) be ignorant of the numbers, or b) believe we are smart enough to avoid being in the group of 22 (sad/dead people) and instead end up in the group of 1 (hero).

I'd love to know where you got that statistic from.

BTW, I don't know if you've ever heard this quote, but it's one that I like a lot.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Benjamin Disraeli

Wehling wrote: Why the HELL would you carry a 2lb glock into the woods? I keep it less than half that, if I carry at all.

I wouldn't; that's the point.

i can name a lot of things that weigh a pound that are more likely to save your ass that a gun.

Kellermann AL, Somes G, Rivara FP, et al. "Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home." The Journal of Trauma. 1998;45:263-267

Kellermann, AL, Rivara, FP, Rushforth NB, et al. "Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home." N Engl J Med. 1993;329:1084-1091

Ya, I like that quote too.

By the way, I also left out the 3rd group besides the 22 sad/dead people and the 1 hero:

The other 10,000(?) people who never use their guns for anything other than target practice and duck hunting... I guess that is where I hope to end up.

There are over 12 million hunters in America, I think your number is a little off.

obviously i am speaking in terms of ratios and percentages - think math

Sam Stephens wrote: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Benjamin Disraeli

Sometimes I hear people collectively slamming ALL statistics. 100% of these people are mathematically illiterate.

"The average human has one breast and one testicle." ~Des McHale

Hey Magill, you got a citation for that 22:1 statistic? I think it sounds a bit on the low side...

EDIT: Oops you already got it cited! Didn't see that...

Eric Krantz wrote: Sometimes I hear people collectively slamming ALL statistics. 100% of these people are mathematically illiterate. "The average human has one breast and one testicle." ~Des McHale Hey Magill, you got a citation for that 22:1 statistic? I think it sounds a bit on the low side... EDIT: Oops you already got it cited! Didn't see that...

The University of Virginia used to use a statistic that said their average salary for a new graduate was something in the millions of dollars. They had some athlete go pro that year.

I learned today that this is not the first time people have been allowed to carry guns in a national park. Last year, January through March, it was tested without a single incident. Granted, this is a short period of time, but you may find some of the info. in this article interesting.

foxnews.com/opinion/2010/02…

richard magill wrote:A nice protective dog is a far more effective deterrent to criminals in just about any situation, IMHO. But if it makes you happy, it's a free country and you can carry all the firepower you want!

Yeah, yeah, we all know that there are many things you can do to look more intimidating, and that works just fine too; like... it helps if you're a big, and/or a strong-looking male, or with a male(s) if you are female, or with a larger group of girls, say 3 or more, you have an unfriendly, scary-looking dog, you look, or act psychotic, you're grossly obese, and your body would be too hard to stuff in a trunk, or burn, and/or you look like you're packing, or swinging a machete. My 5'2" 99 lb. self (at the time) ; ) , when I was a kid/teen was able to scare off two big ass Samoans(a girl, and her brother) by chasing them with the knife when they threatened me as I was scared for my life. I was terrified, but snapped, and I probably would have stabbed them out of fear, and anger (they locked themselves up in their car, before I could reach them), but I did manage to ram my beater car into theirs a little which was overkill. I really thought they'd come back, and kill me (we had one previous altercation when they ambushed my boyfriend, and I in a parking lot, and kicked the shit out of us; my boyfriend got it worse from her brother, but I got kicked on the ground by the girl, and was able to protect my face, and vital areas pretty well by just laying in a fetal position covering my head, and face with my hands, and arms), but I never had any problem with them again after chasing them with a knife. Maybe some posters are right; it was probably good that I didn't have a gun on me in those two altercations, because I might have been locked up if I shot them, or they could have shot us. A knife, and my vehicle worked just fine. That was then, and this is now, and I know how to handle things more civilly these days. Really, I do. : )

Do what feels right for you at the time to protect, and defend yourselves; every situation is different; every individuals' comfort level is unpredictable when experiencing something traumatic.

Take care Richard, and all.

Gri-Gri -- I take it you had an exhilarating ride...

Hey, Kirra,

My friends, and I rode hard for about 3 1/2 hours. I'm kinda new to "real" mountain biking, and my friends are already experienced, so it was challenging doing the more technical stuff with them. I only wiped out once, falling into a yucca, but not a hard fall off my bike. It was actually kind of funny. I was distracted by a cholla, admiring it on my right as I was riding along, and unexpectedly hit a big boulder with my front tire, and fell over into a yucca when my handle bars did a fast 360. At least my legs did great, even up the hills; I didn't feel a burn at all; probably strong from skiing this season, but I could use improvement on my cardio; mountain biking is strenuous! We're getting out again this week. I'm loving the cross-country stuff. What a work-out!

What's this thread about, anyway? Goodnight! : )

EDIT: We saw a herd of burros; about 7 or 8 together! Woohoo!

ouch yes those chollas can be distracting, haha ~g'night biker-grrrl :)

^^^
this post should get a medal.

Best read in a long time.

Killis Howard wrote:Come to Vegas, I'll take you on a hike, I'll carry a pistol, you, nada, and we'll both strap steaks to our legs up there and see how it goes.

I'm game

Evan1984 wrote:^^^ this post should get a medal. Best read in a long time.

ditto

(Killis, sorry I couldn't help out on the last drama-go-round. Thanks though for trying to include me -sometimes there's too much goin on in my own back yard)

LA TIMES: most rangers, are unarmed. ???

A buddy of mine did have a Mtn Lion charge him and he had to "drop" it. He was observing two lions interacting with each other 200yds away and the bigger one locked eyes with him and charged. It finally went down 30 feet away. It was a mature male weighing over 250lbs. I saw the pic from his cell phone. It's head was over 4 "hands" wide between the ears. He was alone at the time. I'm glad he's still around...

Rick Shull wrote:LA TIMES: most rangers, are unarmed. ???

When they say most rangers, are they talking the gate keeper/cleanup crews of college kids or the actual career rangers? The ones derived from US army scouts with most of those traditions?

Maybe Yosemite and the other California Parks are different, but the last time I spent the night in Mammoth, WY they all had personal handguns, shotguns, and assault rifles. I got into a long discussion on the merits of the M14 over the AR-15, though he was a federal marshal.

To a person, they all said they weren't armed for the wildlife, though the marshal had twice put down an wounded animal. A LOT of people will run to the National Parks, because they have this idea that they can hide out in the woods, when in reality any regular is probed and vetted by the other regulars. They said they are often armed and frequently a bear or other animal food raid happens because one of these low lifes got there first.

I haven't ever carried a handgun, bear spray often though, and fortunately never needed either. I'm large enough and usually have a dog, so not an easy mark, and most of the animal encounters are because this idiot let his dog herd moose towards him.

I totally respect the right to bear arms though, and disparage California and other states for their totalitarian limiting of that right.

Happy to see this new law and will only add this.

I get often many times why I carry a gun (never about the flint, toolman, gps, 2ways, tweezers, knife, mini tri-pod, epi-pen, flashlight or anything else) and my only response is this. The list of reasons I will wish I had a gun is long, the list of reasons I'll wish I didn't is short. That makes it an easy choice for me, the day I become an oracle I'll leave the gun at home.

A view from an outsider (Sweden)...
I see no problem at all with this new law. The fact that guns are so easily obtained over there means anybody can get one, even the loonies.
It so easy to obtain a gun over there and carry it with you, so why not in a national park?
I don't get that strapping a steak to your leg part though. I'd go with you without a gun, but why would I strap a steak to my leg? That's like walking around in Santa Teresa, Rio, dressed in fine clothes, waving a few thousand dollars in your hand and saying you need protection not to get robbed.