Mountain Project Logo

Simul-Rapping?

Original Post
Chris Bacon · · Vienna, VA · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 0

Anyone out there ever simul-rap with halves or twins? European death knot setup at the anchors, 8.2mm ropes...One of my partners and I were thinking of the most efficient way to get down long multipitch trad routes and this seems like the quickest way down. Thoughts?

Peter Franzen · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 3,730

It feels really exposed, but it can work well. I've simul-rapped Prince of Darkness at Red Rocks and it made the decent really quick and easy. I only ever simul-rap when the anchor is beyond bomber.

Just make sure you can get enough friction on such a small rope-- using 2 lockers on an ATC instead of one usually does the trick.

Austin Baird · · SLC, Utah · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 95

x2 on the anchor being beyond bomber. You're going to be putting a lot of force on that thing.

x2 on using 2 biners for extra friction. You could also run a biner through your leg loop and run the rope through that to start with. If it's too much friction you can always lock off and take it out.

saxfiend · · Decatur, GA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,221

I've simul-rapped on my Genesis doubles with no problems. Haven't felt the need for extra friction cited by the others, but it couldn't hurt.

One good trick if you have any concerns about staying together is to clip a runner between yours and your partner's belay loop. That way, one of you can stop the other in a pinch, like if your partner got hit by a falling rock.

JL

Eli Helmuth · · Ciales, PR · Joined Aug 2001 · Points: 3,441

I don't do it unless I need to take that extra risk to reduce a different risk that I deem greater (lightning for example), but I wouldn't do it just to drink a beer a bit quicker.
All good ideas above on increasing strength and security.
I like double death knots when doubling the load:)

H BL · · Colorado · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 95

I've done it before on my Ice Floss ropes. a rock was the anchor, and the ropes stretched so much it freaked me out. Felt like rapping on bungy chords, but it worked. I've done it just to practice making sure we both stayed together as I outweighed my partner. Still nice to have someone to talk to on the way down!

Derek W · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 20

I've done it quite a few times but I think your biggest concern is your anchor strength. Also, I don't typically like being close to my partner depending on the terrain, just make sure you don't unweight the rope at your next anchor/ground until your partner reaches you.

mark felber · · Wheat Ridge, CO · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 41

I did it once years ago. We rapped the higher angle stuff one at a time, then simul-rapped the low angle sections at the bottom. Just as well, because I missed one of the rappel anchors on the steep part and had to do some pretty cool acrobatics to get to another anchor over to one side of the rap route. Simul-rapping to hanging anchors would be interesting, to say the least.

Chris Plesko · · Westminster, CO · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 485

I've done it occasionally. I'd need a good reason to do it like Eli said but as long as the anchor is bomber it works fine.

Jordan Ramey · · Calgary, Alberta · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 4,251

Works fine. If you're using a prusik or autoblock backup to give it a bunch more raps and test to see if it holds.

Put the fat guy on the side that won't be pulled. That way the knot sticks at the anchor and it helps keep the rope from sliding a bit. Not a biggie.

put knots in the end of the lines

don't forget and unclip first if you get down first!

J. Thompson · · denver, co · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,425
Austin Baird wrote:x2 on the anchor being beyond bomber. You're going to be putting a lot of force on that thing.
Not force....weight.

josh
BenCooper · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Apr 2007 · Points: 585

Well, technically weight is a type of force from a physics standpoint, namely the force due to the acceleration of gravity :)

J. Thompson · · denver, co · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,425
ben kenobi wrote:Well, technically weight is a type of force from a physics standpoint, namely the force due to the acceleration of gravity :)
Agreed....but in climbing force generally refers to Kn's....which we both know is different than the "force" generated by rappeling.

Cheers,

josh
Patrick Pfeifer · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 0

I've found simul rapping to be most useful when a speedy rappel is needed... for example: my freshman year living in the dorms we would often get bored in the evenings and feel the need to climb buildings and rappel off them under the cover of darkness. These missions were executed as simul rappels to minimize exposure time!

And kilonewtons is a measure of force, not weight. Though rappelling force is different than say, a lead fall, since there is minimal acceleration, the more accurate measurement is still force and not simply weight.

Wayne DENSMORE · · Superior, CO · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 5
saxfiend wrote:... One good trick if you have any concerns about staying together is to clip a runner between yours and your partner's belay loop. That way, one of you can stop the other in a pinch, like if your partner got hit by a falling rock. JL
I don't know if I like this - If one person were to stop the other, wouldn't all the weight be on that first persons side? And if it was the wrong one, you would be pulling the rope.
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
J. Thompson wrote: Not force....weight. josh
Sorry to nitpick. Weight is force. F=ma . Force = mass x acceleration. (Your mass) x (the acceleration of gravity) = force. On earth the acceleration is 9.8 meters per second per second or 32 ft per second per second. Your weight is different on the moon because the acceleration of gravity on the moon is different. Your mass is unchanged when on the moon.

When rappelling the force you exert on the anchor in a free hanging rappel will approximately be your body weight if you rappel smooth and even. If you rappel in a jerky fast slow fast slow fashion the force you exert on the anchor may spike to two or three times you body weight. You certainly could exceed this if you try to intentional by rapping super fast, then lock off. Darwin may eliminate you from the climbing scene quickly.

Example, two climbers weighing 200 lbs each simul rapping may exert 800 to 1200 lbs on the anchor if they are jerky stop and go rappellers. If your anchors are not suitable for this kind of load consider using other anchors or backing them up!
Toe Moss · · Colorado · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 0

ummm..this might be a super dumb question...but wouldn't the total number of "people" still be hanging on the anchor regardless of whether or not a simul-rap is taking place? The difference is whether or not both people are on the rope going down versus one on the rope and the other on the anchor right? Why does the anchor need to be extra bomber compared to say something like a hanging and redirected belay to bring up a second?

I have never had the need to simul-rap, but I'm just curious...

EDIT: oh wait, I just understood the last part of Greg's post

Chris Bacon · · Vienna, VA · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 0

Awesome. Thanks for the opinions and advice. I think we're going to give it a go so we can use the technique during a contingency, weather being the primary issue. Always nice to have another option in the bag of tricks! Once again, great advice from the MPers...

Evan1984 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 30

Always make sure to hop on the end blocked by the knot before your partner does. Haha

Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,196

I have ruined several smaller diameter ropes simul-rapping with autoblocks. Ruined might be a overstatement, but basically the sheath will slide on the core and after several rappels you will end up with an extra foot of sheath at the end of the rope that needs to be cut off. As long as you don't mind I think it is relatively safe. A good backup is to clip a double length sling between you and your partner. Also make sure your knot is big enough so it cannot be sucked into the anchor. Small ropes heavily weighted can get a knot that will slide into some larger ring anchors. For this reason I always use a barrel knot with a EDK backup when simul-rapping on small cords.

Edit: I should mention that the sheath slipping has happened to me on both Bluewater and Beal ropes.

MojoMonkey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 66
Wayne wrote: I don't know if I like this - If one person were to stop the other, wouldn't all the weight be on that first persons side? And if it was the wrong one, you would be pulling the rope.
I had the same question - I am not seeing how this helps when the other partner is dead weight and no longer braking on their side.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
Post a Reply to "Simul-Rapping?"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.