Leaver Biners @ chains

Clay MEIER = jerk

Clay MANSFIELD = not jerk

Thanks Brigette. I'm clear now

clay meier wrote: As for my "theft" of the 'biners Im sorry but I plan to continue. I don't agree with putting any unneccessary hardware on the rock. I prefer to simply educate people new to the sport on ethics (i.e. rapping not lowering and using Quickdraws to TR). Putting unneccessary hardware on the rock to avoid having to educate newbies or having to thread the rope is bad ethics in my book.

Clay,

Do you take the time to remove and pack out the 20 extra pieces of faded tat on a slung tree when you rap, or does your "service" of ridding the rock of useless hardware only extend to "useless" hardware that would be useful on your rack?

I find it interesting that your perception of "utility" is the only one you give creedance to. Obviously, alot of people think they're useful; I'm wondering what makes you the official judge?

Evan

PS I'm going to take mono's stance that you are not a jerk, necesarily, but that this is jerky behavior

So you believe any action is justified as long as the person doing it thinks its right?

This thread has drifted all over the place.....

Back to the original question, whether someone is actively stealing or ignorantly removing the 'leaver biners' the fact still remains that people are taking carabiners that climbers leave on anchors.

I think people here who think there is some consensus must wake up and smell the coffee and realize that there will never be a consensus and that applies to just about anything dealing with climbing.

If you want to leave easily removable gear(carabiners, draws, etc.) at a climbing area, regardless of what you and your friends or the climbing community as you perceive it think is the "rule", you should have the expectation that the gear might not be there when you return. If you want to hang onto your gear, don't leave it at the crag.

Threads of this ilk show up on this forum at the rate of about one a month which makes it hard for me to believe that people are still surprised when they leave easily removable gear at a crag and it is gone when they return. Reality is a bitch. Quit whining about it.

Bruce

No,I think its unjustified to call folks names on the internet. I think Clay's stance is not worthy of calling him a jerk. I dont think his actions are life threatening or damaging to anyones family. We all have different opinions about climbing but calling someone names on the internet is not the answer. If you see this gentlemen climbing tell him to his face. Talk about your issues and dont call each other names. We were supposed to learn this in grade school. Ill tell you what I think of you to your face.I appreciate the same in return. I mean I believe there are bigger problems with climbing then stealing leaver biners to report about. I mean bolting cracks and putting up sport crags and forgetting that some people still climb trad and remember the rules to climbing that we were taught from the people before us. Style and ethics. I have seen really no ethics in the Tuscon area when it comes to setting up routes. So I dont understand your situation. If you have no ethics why would it bother you that folks are stealing leaver biners? Have you folks forgotten the face of your fathers.lol. Clay if your out there have a great day. Stop taking biners if you dont need them and do something more constructive then taking biners. Ok sorry I didnt mean to ramble on. Everyone have a great day. Im headed to cochise to climb for 5 days. come out and sit by the fire and talk with us if your in the area.

dale polen wrote:poor clay he's a jerk because he has a different opinion then you High and mighty folks. He's not a jerk he is just doing what he thinks is right. You internet folks are very rude. Its funny how freedom is freedom if you believe what everyone else believes. If your opinion is different from the crowd you are a jerk or your negative and called names and made fun of...

Uh, yeah, that's kind of how society works. Morality is defined by societal consensus. What the majority of people consider ok is ok. Society allows for a little flexibility at either end of spectrum. But, when someone goes too far, society labels that person accordingly.

If you offer good reasons for what you've done, society tends to allow for it. If you offer BS, self-serving reasons that only apply in situations that benefit you, society calls you a jerk.

dale polen wrote:I have seen really no ethics in the Tuscon area when it comes to setting up routes. So I dont understand your situation. If you have no ethics why would it bother you that folks are stealing leaver biners?

Someone once said: "get lost and learn how to climb before you start telling me about ethics" or something like that.

I would never say that, because that would be

dale polen wrote: very rude.

In addition to basic spelling, punctuation & grammar,

dale polen wrote:We were supposed to learn this in grade school.

Of course the only appropriate way to end a post of this tone would be like this:

dale polen wrote: Peace.

dale polen wrote:I have seen really no ethics in the Tuscon area when it comes to setting up routes. So I dont understand your situation. If you have no ethics why would it bother you that folks are stealing leaver biners?

Someone once said: "get lost and learn how to climb before you start telling me about ethics" or something like that.

I would never say that, because that would be

dale polen wrote: very rude.

In addition to basic spelling, punctuation & grammar,

dale polen wrote:We were supposed to learn this in grade school.

Of course the only appropriate way to end a post of this tone would be like this:

dale polen wrote: Peace.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote:This thread has drifted all over the place..... Back to the original question, whether someone is actively stealing or ignorantly removing the 'leaver biners' the fact still remains that people are taking carabiners that climbers leave on anchors. I think people here who think there is some consensus must wake up and smell the coffee and realize that there will never be a consensus and that applies to just about anything dealing with climbing. If you want to leave easily removable gear(carabiners, draws, etc.) at a climbing area, regardless of what you and your friends or the climbing community as you perceive it think is the "rule", you should have the expectation that the gear might not be there when you return. If you want to hang onto your gear, don't leave it at the crag. Threads of this ilk show up on this forum at the rate of about one a month which makes it hard for me to believe that people are still surprised when they leave easily removable gear at a crag and it is gone when they return. Reality is a bitch. Quit whining about it. Bruce

no you shouldn't be too surprised if easily-removable gear is gone when you get back but that doesn't mean it isn't stealing to take the gear. taking biners left at anchors is no different from taking draws people leave on routes when they're working them.

"You internet folks are very rude.

Its funny how freedom is freedom if you believe what everyone else believes. If your opinion is different from the crowd you are a jerk or your negative and called names and made fun of."

You talk like people here don't exist in person or climb in person. It seems like people who are the of the minimalist ethics seem to fear that Bill Gates has managed to create a bot that develops personas to heckle purists online. Whatever. I think that alot of your described actions were short sighted and just about "balls", but, hey, lets leave it at that. I don't want to beg you to rope gun for me some day.

I also think its funny that you invoke the freedom argument without acknowledging the little piece about your freedom ending at my nose. Obviously, it has been stated that a number of people are impacted by the stolen biners. How is it that someone has the freedom to take something but not leave it at the anchor? Saying that the biner impacts your freedom is weak argument.

Evan

This thread is supposed to be about leaver biners at chains- not fixed draws, fixed ropes, bolts in NH, or the fact that there will always be people that act inappropriately.

Unless the links in the chain are large enough to pass a bight through, biners allow the climber to lower off a route and/or clean it without untying. These biners, like the anchor itself, are a service to climbers. They are especially useful if the route is overhanging or traverses.

As someone who replaces anchors (and chains), I expect the chains to be lowered through (NOT toproped through). If there are biners on the chains...use them, then replace 'em when they're worn.

I feel as if I'm stating the obvious, but wanted to cast my "vote" so to speak.

Does anyone know where to find those biners that have semi permanent pins that one can close when adding to an anchor? I used to see them on the biner end of perma draws. This seems like a good cheap solution to disappearing biners. I would put them up if an anchor needed it.

canyonclimber wrote: Does anyone know where to find those biners that have semi permanent pins that one can close when adding to an anchor? I used to see them on the biner end of perma draws. This seems like a good cheap solution to disappearing biners. I would put them up if an anchor needed it.

i've never seen them - do you have a picture of one?

canyonclimber wrote: Does anyone know where to find those biners that have semi permanent pins that one can close when adding to an anchor? I used to see them on the biner end of perma draws. This seems like a good cheap solution to disappearing biners. I would put them up if an anchor needed it.

yatesgear.com/rescue/hardwa…

canyonclimber wrote: Does anyone know where to find those biners that have semi permanent pins that one can close when adding to an anchor? I used to see them on the biner end of perma draws. This seems like a good cheap solution to disappearing biners. I would put them up if an anchor needed it.

seems like some of the biners shown on ryan's link would solve the problem, however, they are pretty expensive. since the ones with the pin to prevent opening would eliminate the utility of being able to clip and lower, the carabiner with the second forged clipping spot (also shown on ryan's link) would be the closest thing to a solution.

i still think in light of the expense of these items the best thing to do is educate the climbing community.

dale polen wrote:poor clay he's a jerk because he has a different opinion then you High and mighty folks. He's not a jerk he is just doing what he thinks is right. You internet folks are very rude. Its funny how freedom is freedom if you believe what everyone else believes. If your opinion is different from the crowd you are a jerk or your negative and called names and made fun of. Sounds lioke as recess at a grade school. I dont agree with taking the biners but I also dont agree with the name calling a lot of you folks seem to love. Let me tell you a story: I chopped a bunch of bolts off of some climbs in N.H. and a lot of the folks on the Internet were very rude and talked about throwing my motorcycle in the river and wanting to fight. They put the bolts back up and I chopped them again. Boy were some of the guides pissed off. Anyway there was a lot of threats on the internet and so I posted my address and phone # an said come over and talk to me about it. Only Henry Barber showed up and told me how he respected my ethics and balls. Well later that week I was climbing with a good friend and he had a friend with him. He asked If I would climb with his friend, I said yes of course and we continued to the Barber Wall and I led a crack called Nutcracker. 5.9+. I left the top rope on it and the gentlemen proceeded to flail up the climb, not even getting past the first crux.Well he came down and all was good. He then introduced himself to me. This was a guy who on the internet said I should have my ass kicked and thrown out of town. I stepped up to him and put my face in his and said." hello my name is Dale Polen." He stepped back and dropped his head and continued to mutter things like sorry and we all wrote alot of things we didnt mean. Well I said it seems you talk like you climb. Like a pussy. Toold him to get lost and learn how to climb before he starts telling me about ethics. Funny story. I think its best if we keep it clean on the internet and just say hey dude this is how we feel. If you feel different thats okay. Peace and just be nice. I know Im a punk, but lets act like adults here. Peace.

hey dale-

i think the difference between someone who is "doing something he thinks is right" and "a jerk" lies in how he responds to the community. the consensus in this area is that the carabiner anchors are helpful. which is why the majority of them remain undisturbed.

so in my mind, if clay takes them once, sees how everyone feels about it, and then doesn't do it any more, then he's clearly NOT a jerk.

i think what got everyone fired up is clay's statement that he was going to keep on removing the carabiners despite the community consensus. when someone pushes their agenda to the point of deliberately irritating the vast majority of the community, i think that person puts himself into the jerk category.

i do agree, however, that a person should say the same thing to someone in person as they are willing to do on the forum. i know many the locals who have posted up, and assure they they'd say the same thing to clay that they say here - i've personally observed them do it. they're stand-up folks for sure.

anyway, just my thoughts on your point of view. thanks for posting up an alternative point of view knowing it might be unpopular & keeping people in check.

regards,
geir

caughtinside wrote: Oh yeah, big round stock ovals last the longest, don't develop the edge.

Don't develop the edge? I'm pretty sure that I have seen some scary edges on ovals before. Are you simply stating that ovals develop the edge more slowly than a D biner?

These would be perfect, but the price is way above what most of us route developers can afford.

fixeusa.com/steel_carabiner…

Thus, the regular old aluminum carabiner becomes much more attractive, even with its drawbacks.

I'm working on something that will hopefully be a compromise between the two, but it's still in development.

Eric Ruljancich wrote:These would be perfect, but the price is way above what most of us route developers can afford. fixeusa.com/steel_carabiner… Thus, the regular old aluminum carabiner becomes much more attractive, even with its drawbacks. I'm working on something that will hopefully be a compromise between the two, but it's still in development.

What you posted is just a way over priced version of the Mussy Hook that you can get for $8.