No falls?

Tom, isn't that you from the other day at Castlewood?

Tom, isn't that you from the other day at Castlewood?

From what I have gathered talking to other climbers from your origins, Tom, you are in good company there. My buddy Roy climbs in the same style and I would doubt he has taken many if any leader falls. He has climbed Astroman twice, guiding up a client on one trip. So obviously he didn't need to take falls to get extremely competent on the sharp end.

I think the inclusion of taking falls into the learning process is a very recent addition to climbing and that sport routes made that possible. I have logged many, many lead falls on bolts and have only gotten a little rope burn from one. But as for trad falls, I have only logged two at the start of "Chockstone." on two well set nuts. That's after eight years of trad leading. I've not taken any falls since.

I definitely don't care a whit about style when it comes to falls in the backcountry. I absolutely refuse to care about that jive when the consequences could be a life threatening injury hours from anyone that will probably ensure a sufferfest even if one survives. Having a kid makes that decision easy. I will just pull out the aiding if it gets hairy. No sweat. Mentally, I can handle easy runouts.

(Just saw the photo edit:)

Er, Tom. If you are going to take falls you could at least do it with a little more dignity.

JLP wrote: I tend to set a 3 RP attempt limit for myself. If can't get a route faster than that, I ask myself why and focus instead on whatever weakness was at play - on easier routes.

I've never set a limit for redpoint attempts for myself, but I'm totally on board with this philosophy. Working and working a given route, for me, climbing in the 5.10 to 5.11 range, doesn't help me improve as a climber - it helps me climb that single route. Climbing a lot of different routes slightly below my limit, hanging on and thinking through difficult sequences has, I've found, benefitted my climbing more than lots and lots of tries.

I think this attitude is also a factor in why I prefer to continue climbing into a section I know might be at my limit rather than take (given that downclimbing to a stance isn't an option) - I'd rather test my mental abilities actively - that is, while moving into a tough section sort of pumped - than think it out while resting.

Climbing is a practice. As in we practice "control", but are never perfect. That's what keeps it interesting to me! I control as much of the experience as I can- gear selection, fall assessment, my breathing and movement. Challenging climbs at my limit are an exercise in managing doubt and desire. It's such a dynamic process and I think it over-simplifies it to equate falling with failure, or try to fit it into the dogma of 'leader-must-not-fall'.

Tom, IMO it seems to me like this pride you have in not falling is holding you back. Of course, you can play the game anyway you want! This is not about pushing grades- it's about testing the boundaries of our personal limits. How many of those moves that you've down-climbed from might have gone?

One more thing- "unexpected" and "out of control" mean two different things to me, though they seem to mean the same thing to you. I've fallen because a foothold crumbled and to me this was unexpected, but didn't mean I was climbing wildly or out of control.

Sometimes I fall and sometimes I hang on my gear. When I fall I feel good. When I hang on my gear I feel like a bit of a puss. But both have helped me progress and advance my abilities.

I'm chicken shit about falling on trad, I'll flat out admit it. 90% of the time I'm of the 'leader must not fall' mentality. And hell yeah it's held me back in terms of grade progression, no doubt about it. For me, it's not a pride thing at all, it's straight up self-preservation. Like I said, chicken shit.

But I would have to add that it's situational dependent. I don't sport climb really (maybe 40 pitches total in 15 yrs of climbing) and a good deal of the trad/alpine lines I've sought either involve a backcountry setting, crap pro in dicey spots, ice, or plain ugly terrain for falling (ledges, horns, sharp edges, etc). No way am I just going to go for it in those instances and see what happens.

On the other hand, climbing in places like Yosemite, Indian Creek, etc, gives me the opportunity to push my boundaries. Falls are clean, reliable pro is plentiful - go for it.

Interestingly, climbing in the gym during winters has actually reinforced my leader-must-not-fall mentality (in terms of trad). In the gym you can push the crux without worry of the fall - sometimes you make it, sometimes you don't, and here's the kicker for me, sometimes you you make it but you're too spent to clip the draw. I've fallen while pulling slack for the clip, I've fallen mid-clip with finger in the 'biner, and I've climbed higher in hopes of a better clipping stance only to pop off 2+ skipped bolts above my last clip. Fine and dandy in the gym. Now juxtapose a trad route in those same situations. I don't want to push deep into a crux only to emerge on the other side too damn spent to futz in some RP. For me, I want a wider margin/reserve of energy left to actually hang out and place pro after a crux. Again, it's all situational dependent.

Overall, I enjoy climbing for the fun of it. I derive fun from the surroundings, the movement, the people, the challenge - each with different weights at different times. And so for me, 'failing' is simply not being able to appreciate those elements for what they are. Sitting at home broken (or worse) because of some botched trad lead is failure. Been there done that.

Yours,
Chicken Shit

Mike wrote:If you are not falling, you are not climbing hard enough.

hard enough for who?

Falling sucks. But then there's this weird excitement when you do, and you realize it's okay. Then when it goes wrong, and you break/dislocate both your ankles, you ask yourself was it worth it?.....just can't win.

I can see your point about trad climbing. When I learned to trad lead I was told to not fall. I think the rationale was that the gear (when my mentors learned to climb) was less than reliable. I really took that to heart. I still do. But I've fallen on trad gear, not often, but it's happened. My foot popped on a route I had led a half dozen times before. I jumped on a route well below my ability and got spanked and had to let go after a long time deliberating the consequences. Do I see these as failures? Yes. But I don't go back and climb easier things to keep from falling. And I don't climb harder things to puff my chest. I go back and do the routes again, cleanly with no falls. Then I move on. I wish relationships were as unambiguous as that.

To add: my post goes for sport climbing and bouldering as I have never climbed trad. I have no business and no intent to speak for trad climbing. All my trad buddies go with the no falls rule. Can't really speak on that. Trad climbers have thick balls. God bless.

To each his own. I've known some amazing climbers of the "old-school" type whom have climbed relatively hard and never fallen on gear. I respect those guys, but I climb differently. I've climbed trad for 10 years now, and take several whips a year on gear. There is definitely an assessment of gear quality and obstacles in the fall line prior to whipping, but I don't see a problem with pushing into fall territory on gear, especially when there is a classic on-sight at stake.

So, Tom, tell us something that we don't know. Why are you asking the question to start with?

I would have to agree with Eric. I too am a chicken Shit. I have fallen once on Trad and that was on my first lead 17 years ago. My only mentor was Freedom of the Hills. I had placed a Stopper, and moved on. My foot slipped and I came off. Maybe 10 foot fall. The stopper held to my surprise, and since then I still have not, and refuse to, if I can control it, take a fall. I will plug a piece in panic, or down climb, or suck it up, and keep moving til I can plug a piece. But, I fear falling on gear like the plague.

I've fallen five or six times on gear. The first time was on a smallish Wired Bliss TCU at Granite Mountain near Prescott. That was a 20 footer, and when it held I was very happy and gained plenty of confidence in trad gear. A French climber was with us and said some thing like 'You Americans really do go for it.' Also fell on a Lowe Ball slider about ten feet, too. It took 30 minutes for the second to retrieve it, but it held well. I've ledge out on three different falls...my bad luck. Spent eight weeks on crutches after falling 35 feet onto a ledge. That was my longest and most painful fall. I drank nine Heinikens to fall asleep that night. If you are pushing yourself, you just might take a whipper or two.

A fall is failure, but better than a take or lower.

There's a picture (Wish I could find it) of me looking down at my belayer and slapping the wall, while laughing, after several 5 to 7 foot (lead) falls. This is one of my favorite climbing memories-I was having so much fun trying new moves and really pushing myself. The belayer and I were cracking up and that was probably about the time I realized I truly loved this sport/lifestyle.

Falls are part of climbing... They happen.

Right on Erik and Anthony.

Who cares as long as you're having fun? It's different for everyone. Do what you're comfortable with.

Personally, I like falling. It gives me confidence and motivation to get up, do the move again, and know I am safe in the process. Of course, that's the whole key. Knowing when it's safe/not to go for it.

Falling/not falling, it's all fair play if you stay smart and you're still smiling.

have you ever fallen in an gym? I haven't read everything but I'm just wondering.

me whipping on 'Sheik yer Bouti' ,still no send yet :(

It just seems like if you really want to see what you are capable of, you need to whip at least a few times.

I guess I agree with the 'no-fall' thing when climbing on gear, but even then, try hard enough and it happens.

Even though I really don't like to fall on lead, I've taken a few whippers over the years. In general, it's a good idea not to get into the habit of falling on trad. I've seen a lot of people rip gear and get hurt on trad routes. Climbing in control, using good judgement, having route finding skills, and being able to down climb back to that last manky RP are all skills that are good to have. It would seem hard to not fall occasionally though.

For sport climbing it's definitely OK to fall now and then. Indiscriminate whipping is probably not advised and tends to ruin ropes quickly. I have found that I have a pretty good idea of what my capabilities are so it's not worth going on that next move or two when I know I'm already gassed. It was sort of fun taking falls intentionally in the gym the other day with my 10 year-old on the other end of the rope with a gri-gri.

Tom Hanson wrote:Somehow I suspected that my inquiry would end up being an opportunity for all the superhardcore to spew about how they goforit. Yawn.

What thread were YOU reading? Weaksauce edit on your part.

Tzilla Rapdrilla wrote: It was sort of fun taking falls intentionally in the gym the other day with my 10 year-old on the other end of the rope with a gri-gri.

Sweet! Now when nobody wants to give me a marathon belay on one of my obscure projects at crags nobody likes, can I borrow Gordy?