Grades? (not report card)

For routes I have been posting on MP, I have been using:

The YDS system involves an optional Roman numeral Grade that indicates the length and seriousness of the route. The Grades are:
Grade I: one to two hours of climbing.
Grade II: less than half a day.
Grade III: half a day climb.
Grade IV: full day climb.
Grade V: two day climb.
Grade VI: multi-day climb.[4]
Grade VII: a climb lasting a week or longer

Is this correct?

I think you are close but here are my estimates:
Grade I: one to two pitches of climbing.
Grade II: less than half a day of climbing.
Grade III: about a half a day climb.
Grade IV: almost a full day climb.
Grade V: a long full day of climbing or more.
Grade VI: a multi-day climb.
Grade VII: a climb lasting well over a week or a multi-day climb at high altitude (over 15,000). Never existed in the 70's, but the compressor route on Cerro Torrey did. But nobody knew if they had sumitted! Was it 200 or 300 continous days, I can't remember. Today that might be a Grade VII+!!

Both right. Forest listed what I would call the traditional standard (most guidebooks). Jim is just giving it in terms of a more 'modern' standard for a competent team moving fast, i.e. folks who have no problem doing the NW of Half Dome in under a day.

I would say written descriptions in the literature adhere to the traditional standard in general though.

a Grade 1 could last me all day if i am really enjoying it. but i am a tantric climber.

Funny Horsey. Next time it's an epic day, I'll instead call it a tantric day.

Kat A wrote:Funny Horsey. Next time it's an epic day, I'll instead call it a tantric day.

I was under the impression that Grade VII had as much to do with remotness as length of ascent, you had to be in a situation where rescue was not an option for any practical purpose, Baffin Island, Patigonia, etc. Otherwise you could easly state that the FA of the Nose was grade VII. Anyway,

Grade VI The Nose or longer
Grade V NW Face of Half Dome on the short end
Grade IV Senic Cruise and Astroman pretty normal
Grade III Rostrum North Face on the long end, East Buttress of Middle Cathedral

At the lower end I don't really think it is worth arguing since it is unlikely that you are going to be risking getting caught in the dark. Talking about how long a route will take the typical party is all fine and dandy but it makes not sense unless you define a "standard party", it is better to look at comparable routes so you can relate your experience on one to another.

As you can see it is obvious that it is just a suggestion like a difficulty grade and everyones experience will vary depending on ability and partner or lack of. The grade is also not always just how long it takes to complete a given route but can take into account the remotness as well, a really long approach that needs light or descent for that matter might make a half day route a full day.

Another thing I find interesting is how few people out there even know of this scale, I see many route descriptions on this site that list single pitch sport climbs as Grade V, presumably because they are of the fifth class. You could however argue that if it took you 2 days and 10 tries to red-point you proj that it is Grade V.....

I would agree with JLP on this. I think that regardless of how fast the average ascent time on a given route becomes, you still need to keep the grading system consistent. There needs to be a single, standard point of reference or the grade loses meaning. Thus, as JLP states, Half Dome is a VI and the Rostrum or the Cattle Route on the Diamond is a IV no matter whether you can solo it before work or not.

LeeAB,
You said: "Otherwise you could easly state that the FA of the Nose was grade VII." Actually Royal Robbins and other F.A. folk always talk about the fact that there was no rescue available back then.So in todays standards they might just have been Grade VII's or at least VI+. Something to think about.

OK, Astroman is listed as Grade IV on this site, not that that makes it the word of God obviously. Senic Cruise was climbed in a day on the FA and while parties do get benighted on it it has typically always been climbed in that way with that attitude, hence Grade IV.

If you stick with historical benchmarking, is the Steck-Salathe still Grade VI then, most likely not and while it provides a nice historical perspective I don't think people generally consider it as such.

Another interesting point that I've talked about with others is how difficulty plays in to this grade. Does anyone argue that Serenity Sons should be Grade V? Not really but Astroman, Yes. They are really about the same length and both pretty continuous at their given grade but it seems like you get extra credit for climbing harder. So what do people think, 10 pitch route all pitches 5.10, versus 10 pitch route all pitches 5.12, what Grade does each get?

As far as the Rostrum example from JLP goes about someone climbing the Rostrum when it is at their limit, versus if they are a letter grade stronger. Yes I agree that there will be a time difference and how long it takes should be based off of a successful ascent from a party climbing at their limit, but on a clean ascent otherwise you get into being able to call hard 2 and 3 pitch routes that took two days to climb Grade V.

For what it is worth I would guess that Half Dome was not a Grade VI by it's second or third ascent, where as the Nose took a pretty long time before it was even done in two day. The FA of anything is going to take a bit longer than any subsequent ascent and yet the grade is supposed to tell people what to expect, not just what their experience was. I'm most interested in what people have to say about the routes of different difficulty but the same length because that is what intrigues me the most.

OH and as far as Jim G's comment about The Nose possibly being Grade VII when it was done, there you go the bench mark for Grade VI used to be Grade VII so stuff is already changing.

Anyone know if MP automatically finds consensus on grades as it does on routes? If not his would be a cool feature. An average grade, like an average rating, could give a climber an idea of how to plan for the climb in the constrains of her/his ability.