Knocking on Death's Door...Luckily No One Was Home

Everybody with a trick or a tip or a comment about prussiks and tying knots in the ends needs to go back and re-read the brother's testimony. HE DIDN'T PULL UP THE ROPE. He had a moment. He had his moment. I'm going to go ahead and say he's got his own big bag of tricks and knows what he's doing, just like you, just like me. God knows I've had my moment. It makes me smile whenever a non-climber tells me about their rappelling experience and how much fun it all is. Wrong! Rappelling is the worst part of climbing, and until a person has had their moment, or has desperately slung the roots of a dying bush and rapped off it in the dark, or rapped off a single point on a desert tower and been thankful for that scraggly, bent, old, rusty piton, rappelling will continue to be fun.

Glad you made it back home to your boys, man. Thanks for posting; made my feet and palms sweat imagining it.

Sorden wrote:made my feet and palms sweat imagining it.

Yup, good post

Eric W, The reason given for locating the kleimheist below the device is that it runs freer and doesn't jam like it could when placed above the device. Think of the kleimheist below the device as a travelling fireman's belay. Just a small amount of pressure is enough to stop the rope from slipping through the device. Great point about the knot being above the device. That's the second best way to prevent death if the tail(s) slip through your hand or the device. The best way, of course, is to tie knots.

Mal

Malcolm Daly wrote:The best way, of course, is to tie knots. Mal

+1

Malcolm Daly wrote:Think of the kleimheist below the device as a travelling fireman's belay. Just a small amount of pressure is enough to stop the rope from slipping through the device.

That was my impression as to the logic/theory behind having the auto-blok below, but in practice - for me anyway - it never worked as intended or instead forced me into unnatural rap positions to make it work.

Setup: atc connected via locking biner to belay loop, kleimheist connected via locking biner to leg loop. Using standard brake hand + guide hand rap style.

Problems encountered: if you construct the kleimheist + locker setup long enough such that you can keep your brake hand on the outside of your hip (with freedom to wrap around the back of the hip for added friction), you run the very likely risk that this required length will then allow the kleimheist to get sucked into the atc should your brake hand lose contact. This has been my experience. When I build the kleimheist + locker setup short enough to prevent this, it then requires my brake hand to be too close to the atc (too close in terms of natural/comfortable/leverage-inducing position).

The only solutions to above, that I've found, are to either extend the belay device away from my harness via a sling or to use both hands as brake hands (one for actual breaking, the other for monitoring the kleimheist) - and while I often do rap with both hands on the brake side, I don't want to be 'locked' into having to do it that way, if that makes sense.

After trying a bunch of below-the-device variations early on, and none of them really working to my liking (or not working at all), I settled on the above-the-device method.

If you are having troubles with the hitch below the rap device, just cow-tail the device (extend it out, I use my PAS). Once you get used to it, it works better in committing terrain anyway.

Erik W wrote: That was my impression as to the logic/theory behind having the auto-blok below, but in practice - for me anyway - it never worked as intended or instead forced me into unnatural rap positions to make it work. After trying a bunch of below-the-device variations early on, and none of them really working to my liking (or not working at all), I settled on the above-the-device method.

Erik, above the atc seems like a good idea, until you weight your friction knot. Unless you do some sort of muenter hitch variation, it will be impossible to do anything but ascend the rope once this knot has been weighted (especially on overhung terrain). I suppose you could do some sort of one-armed pull up on the rope... Think about it and test it out. I'd hate to have you get stuck up there!

Buff Johnson wrote:If you are having troubles with the hitch below the rap device, just cow-tail the device (extend it out, I use my PAS). Once you get used to it, it works better in committing terrain anyway.

Although it really pains me to say it, Buff is correct.

Extending the device with a cow-tail is my standard practice now.
Better angle, more control.
Try it.
You'll like it.

Erik W wrote: Anyone know why the recommended method for auto-bloks is below the device, even when the rap device is directly attached to the harness with just one biner (no sling extension)?

I have been told the reason is because in a panic, grabbing the prussic can cause it to fail, also, in a fast fall nylon on nylon is not good. Below the device it is acting as a back up brake hand not actually stopping you by itself.

I agree with a previous poster, the only thing that would have prevented this was stopper knots. I don't always tie them but perhaps I shall.

When I purchased by reverso3, the instructions recommended extending the rappel device, I will never go back to the other way, the device is in such a better position visually and handles way better.

Scott Thalacker wrote: Erik, above the atc seems like a good idea, until you weight your friction knot. Unless you do some sort of muenter hitch variation, it will be impossible to do anything but ascend the rope once this knot has been weighted (especially on overhung terrain). I suppose you could do some sort of one-armed pull up on the rope... Think about it and test it out. I'd hate to have you get stuck up there!

OK, question here:

Let's say that I'm using a Petzl Shunt above the ATC (which is against the guidelines, Instructions here). That is essentially a mechanical replacement for a prussik knot that can be released even while weighted. Why does that need to go below the ATC? I actually have a Shunt that I haven't had a chance to use yet, and this question has been bugging me for a while.

i don't know much about shunts, but i think it would only work on a single line rap? Since the poster said klemheist, I assumed friction knots, which is what most people tend to use.

most of what i know about self-rescue i learned from glacier travel. a good book on glacier rescue will teach you a lot about which systems work best and why.

It's really only our systems/habits that protect us from these 'moments'. it's hard not to become mindless when you're doing something for the umpteenth time. having said that, we all have our moments. and i agree that rappelling is my least favorite part of climbing...

Scott Thalacker wrote: Erik, above the atc seems like a good idea, until you weight your friction knot. Unless you do some sort of muenter hitch variation, it will be impossible to do anything but ascend the rope once this knot has been weighted (especially on overhung terrain). I suppose you could do some sort of one-armed pull up on the rope... Think about it and test it out. I'd hate to have you get stuck up there!

an autoblock knot can be released while weighted, and for this reason is not recomended to ascend ropes with.

i've tried to release an autoblock knot while it was weighted and failed... maybe i'm confused here. you can of course release any friction knot (or other knot) once your weight is off it. but while it's weighted? good luck, man. just throwing in my 2 cents. i've had problems with this in the past and am trying to save someone a headache. but if you test it out, and make it work, go for it! why am i wasting time on mountain project?!

Scott Thalacker wrote: above the atc seems like a good idea, until you weight your friction knot.

It happens - hell, it happened this weekend on a free hanging rap in the dark (post bonking, even) while I was trying to adjust my headlamp - but it is actually a world easier than you'd think to get the knot's tension released enough to slide down again. Try it.

Rick, I like your 'panic' reasoning for the below-the-device logic. Makes sense, especially coupled with the fireman's belay comparison Malcolm made.

Seems to me that descending one pitch routes by lowering is generally quicker, safer, and more convenient than rapelling (except in some cases when the rope won't run smoothly). I see lots of people rappelling every sport and crag pitch now. I understand the point re: reducing wear on the anchors; in my view that's easily solved by using replaceable anchor points (and keeping your rope clean, which has other virtues). Of course lowering can cause accidents too (the old lower partner off the end of the rope trick--an error made by newbs and old hands alike). But on balance, lowering seems better to me, and it's what I *think* most experienced sport climbers do.

I'd be interested in what other people think: maybe I'm doing it wrong and the rappellers are right, and I'm always willing to reconsider my personal "best practices."

I'm glad you were able to make it home safe to your family! Thanks for sharing your story. Almost every climber has at least one close call at some point it seems. I know I've been scared out of my mind a time or two! Stay safe out there everyone. Double and Triple check every time.
Have fun out there!

Triple check or you might deck. Every body has a brain fart at least once out climbing. Glad it wasn't fatal.

There is a distinction between "habits" and approaching every situation with a fresh eye. Some general habits are useful, such as triple checking everything, or going through the verbal dialog prior to climbing (On belay? On belay. Climbing? Climb on [wit yore bad self!]). Other habits might be counterproductive. For example I do not have a hard and fast rule about whether to lower or rap off a particular route. I try to look at each situation and decide what is the safest, most efficient way to solve the problem.

Generally many situations in climbing have two or more ways to get past them, and the best or safest way can vary.

I've heard that the most dangerous time in a climber's career is the intermediate stage. Once a climber gets some experience, they get comfortable and start "cutting corners", or in the case of the OP, start thinking about multiple things at once (i.e., setting up a rap AND cleaning an anchor). This is when mistakes can happen. I consider myself firmly in the intermediate class of climber, so I try to slow down and really think things through.

Tradster wrote:Triple check or you might deck. Every body has a brain fart at least once out climbing. Glad it wasn't fatal.

Very true. While switching belay spots (standing on a very small cossy ledge) getting ready for a second pitch I noticed my buddy wasn't clipped into anything! Fortunatley he clipped in without incident but it was a real scare, would've been a deadly fall.

Some good thoughts Brian. Situation Awareness and being proficient with your education & experience.

Most people that get into climbing are usually finished with the activity for one reason or another within five years or so.